Elections 2024 Iowa Republican presidential caucuses: Jan 15th

[Darkgsp]

 

[Jack V Savage]

Without us getting stuck in the weeds on each topic you mentioned, I’ll say that I think you are asking a very timely and relevant question (assuming I’m understanding you correctly): Is there a place for a more traditional conservative in today’s Republican Party?

I don’t say this to sound dramatic— but I notice some definite parallels between the time we’re living in now, and the decade just prior to the Civil War. At that time, the Whig Party was going through the same thing the GOP is now; namely, they were being hijacked by extremist elements. That schism ultimately led to the demise of the Whig Party altogether.

There are a lot of good conservative Americans in this country, and I would implore them to take their party back from the Freedom Caucus/MAGA elements before it’s too late.

Remember: studies of other fascist regimes or insurgencies have shown that it’s typically only a small-ish percentage of the population thats truly gung -ho and fervent about the ideology. The rest are some mix of people who don’t really care since it won’t affect them directly, or believe that the end results will be good for the country overall, or brush off the concerns as being overblown (see the post directly above this one).

What are "traditional conservatives," though? Are you thinking of Robert Taft or Ronald Reagan? Because the conservative movement itself did hijack the GOP by extremist elements with Goldwater first and then later Reagan. As crazy and extremist as people thought Goldwater was, he was far saner and more moderate than almost anyone in today's GOP.

 

[steveflynn]

What are "traditional conservatives," though? Are you thinking of Robert Taft or Ronald Reagan? Because the conservative movement itself did hijack the GOP by extremist elements with Goldwater first and then later Reagan. As crazy and extremist as people thought Goldwater was, he was far saner and more moderate than almost anyone in today's GOP.

Goldwater was saner and more moderate than almost anyone in today's GOP and, I would even say, in many ways, Ronald Reagan was as well. Today the GOP is a political party entirely fueled by conspiracy theories and Rush Limbaugh like grievance.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Goldwater was saner and more moderate than almost anyone in today's GOP and, I would even say, in many ways, Ronald Reagan was as well. Today the GOP is a political party entirely fueled by conspiracy theories and Rush Limbaugh like grievance.

Yeah, just saying that the crazies are taking over for the previous crazies who already took over. Once you abandon liberalism, it's just a never-ending decline, it seems like. Hard to even imagine the road back to sanity at this point.

 

[N13]

Vivek Ramaswamy ended his campaign last night, today he is part of Trump's campaign.

 

[BFoe]

What are "traditional conservatives," though? Are you thinking of Robert Taft or Ronald Reagan? Because the conservative movement itself did hijack the GOP by extremist elements with Goldwater first and then later Reagan. As crazy and extremist as people thought Goldwater was, he was far saner and more moderate than almost anyone in today's GOP.

Yes to both things that you said
Yeah, I was thinking of Reagan type conservatives. And while I find a lot of their policies objectionable (or worse), like you said Reagan or Goldwater was a far cry from what we see today. They still showed up for debates, adhered to election results, didn’t coddle dictators. Watching the Republican primary candidates in the 2nd debate I think it was, stand in the Reagan Presidential Library and kowtow to Russia and kiss,Putin’s ass, was just surreal.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Yes to both things that you said
Yeah, I was thinking of Reagan type conservatives. And while I find a lot of their policies objectionable (or worse), like you said Reagan or Goldwater was a far cry from what we see today. They still showed up for debates, adhered to election results, didn’t coddle dictators. Watching the Republican primary candidates in the 2nd debate I think it was, stand in the Reagan Presidential Library and kowtow to Russia and kiss,Putin’s ass, was just surreal.

I would like to see the return of Eisenhower Republicans, but that seems hopeless. There are some in the Northeast who seem at least grounded in reality and capable of connecting policies logically to results they want to achieve, but none of them are really viable on a national level.

 

[BFoe]

I would like to see the return of Eisenhower Republicans, but that seems hopeless. There are some in the Northeast who seem at least grounded in reality and capable of connecting policies logically to results they want to achieve, but none of them are really viable on a national level.

They won’t be bringing back Eisenhower’s tax brackets, that’s for sure <45>

 

[steveflynn]

Yeah, just saying that the crazies are taking over for the previous crazies who already took over. Once you abandon liberalism, it's just a never-ending decline, it seems like. Hard to even imagine the road back to sanity at this point.

It will be very hard because there is too much incentive to be the absolute craziest in today's GOP.

 

[b-hop]

It’s an interesting and well articulated perspective.

I wonder, is there room for people who don’t think there is a “great replacement” effort but want to halt mass migration, don’t believe that there are dozens of genders, want to keep biological males out of women’s bathrooms/sports and think the whole movement is a net negative for society but also believe that adults can do what they want to their bodies in isolation, want to keep perverse books out of children’s libraries and believe “CRT” is a faulty framework that causes division rather than progress?

Those are my beliefs. I don’t believe they need to be framed in the way you have. I would say that there is an element of the Trump party that is incapable of nuanced understanding so they probably do frame it the way you do, unfortunately.

I don’t think my beliefs are extreme and it’s a shame we have to frame them in extreme terms. This is why we can’t come together as a country.

I'll believe in the great replacement theory until someone shows me any economic advantage, or any advantage at all with mass migration. Any argument that would derive from logical thoughts instead of moral point of views(wich are legit), because moral point of view arguments can also be used exactly as theories of great replacement or anti-white racism.

 

[koquerelle]

election fraud?

 

[Joe]

election fraud?

If trump or his supporters did commit voter fraud it wouldnt matter. Republicans would be too afraid to call it out.

 

[ShadowRun]

While he was talking about trump lol

 

[Phisher]

LOL, and we all know that Vivek's response to this will be to no-sell it and double down on all of his ahistorical takes that indirectly attack black people to keep pandering to these assholes for future opportunities.

 

[Joe]

LOL, and we all know that Vivek's response to this will be to no-sell it and double down on all of his ahistorical takes that indirectly attack black people to keep pandering to these assholes for future opportunities.

Its pretty pathetic whether he believes it or not that he has to act that everything is fine and republicans cant be racist. He has to take it. Like a lot of right wing minorities they are just desperate to be considered one of the good ones and look for approval from them.

 

[Phisher]

Its pretty pathetic whether he believes it or not that he has to act that everything is fine and republicans cant be racist. He has to take it. Like a lot of right wing minorities they are just desperate to be considered one of the good ones and look for approval from them.

What's even worse is that Ramaswamy is already set for life and has generational wealth because of that scam drug that he pumped and dumped.

He doesn't have to subject himself to this nonsense for financial gain. He wants to do it.

 

[Andy Capp]

Not since, before. Dude was planting doubt in their minds prior to the election. It’s all orchestrated. There was no fraud, he’s a narcissist that refuses to acknowledge reality. Deep down I think he knew he was in trouble and just came up with an early excuse

Before the 2016 election, even. I've pointed out more than once they were screaming about how if he were to lose it must be due to cheating, in July, 2016, or even earlier. Roger Stone explicitly laid out the plan on Milo Yiannopoulos' show.

July, 2016
https://www.breitbart.com/social-ju...-stone-milo-show-trump-can-fight-voter-fraud/

“Do they typically move in one direction?” asked Yiannopoulos.

“Yeah, the elections are rigged for one entity or another. So, who are the perpetrators? The perpetrators are the people who manufacture and sell these machines. The most common electronic voting machine, which is really just a computer, is a company called Diebold,” Stone replied.

“Diebold’s top executives and owners of the company are major donors to the Bush’s. Is this a major factor on how George W. Bush quite improbably beat John Kerry? An election that all truths on paper, Kerry should’ve won, and Bush should have lost,” questioned Stone.

“I think we have widespread voter fraud, but the first thing that Trump needs to do is begin talking about it constantly,” Stone said. “He needs to say for example, today would be a perfect example: ‘I am leading in Florida. The polls all show it. If I lose Florida, we will know that there’s voter fraud. If there’s voter fraud, this election will be illegitimate, the election of the winner will be illegitimate, we will have a constitutional crisis, widespread civil disobedience, and the government will no longer be the government.’”

“If you can’t have an honest election, nothing else counts,” he continued. “I think he’s gotta put them on notice that their inauguration will be a rhetorical, and when I mean civil disobedience, not violence, but it will be a bloodbath. The government will be shut down if they attempt to steal this and swear Hillary in. No, we will not stand for it. We will not stand for it.”

“So, I mean the dream here, the ultimate ideal is that he wins by such a significant margin nationally that this is unnecessary,” Yiannopoulos concluded. “But it’s interesting to hear you say this, and it’s funny also, because Trump will go there. He will go to the places other politicians wont, and he’s probably the only person to run for president within the last fifty years who would dare to do this, and might even get away with it. It’s remarkable isn’t it how he’s just sort of re-injected reality into politics”.

 

[panamaican]

I'll believe in the great replacement theory until someone shows me any economic advantage, or any advantage at all with mass migration. Any argument that would derive from logical thoughts instead of moral point of views(wich are legit), because moral point of view arguments can also be used exactly as theories of great replacement or anti-white racism.

But people have laid out the economic advantage of mass migration all of the time. Not saying you have to agree with it but it would be untrue to claim no one has laid it out.

The broad strokes go like this:

Immigration, both skilled and unskilled, increase a nation's greatest resource - people. People produce things. Whether they're picking oranges or innovating at NASA. More people means more production. And within that increased production comes the greater probability that some of that production will accelerate your nation further ahead of others. Additionally, with falling birthrates, nation's run the risk of the not being able to provide the services to which their citizens are entitled or have earned. Immigration addresses that as well. The economic advantage of mass migration are basically cheaper labor for the production of goods and services that benefit the nation and enough people to maintain the tax base necessary to continue providing 1st world nation benefits.

Most the of arguments against are about who specifically wins and loses in the economic maelstrom. Or the false moral points about losing cultures or some other element which isn't really defined, let alone measurable.

Like I said - you don't have to agree with that argument but it has been laid out by many, many people over the last 30 years.

 

[Andy Capp]

Vivek Ramaswamy ended his campaign last night, today he is part of Trump's campaign.

"And nothing of value was lost"--or gained.

 

[koquerelle]

Its pretty pathetic whether he believes it or not that he has to act that everything is fine and republicans cant be racist. He has to take it. Like a lot of right wing minorities they are just desperate to be considered one of the good ones and look for approval from them.

Of course he doesn't believe that bs. He's a fraud.