When Tom KOs Jones, don't make excuses for Jon. Jon has all the advantages

[Dbreiden83080]

How do you revisit aspinall’s reaction to the first punch of the stipe fight?

Rather watch the first stipe fight and see jon over-extend his first punch and hang his chin out

Oh lord..

 

[SuperAlly]

Oh lord..

Your friends all drive porsches?

 

[Luffy]

tldr...you didn't read.. i said 40"ish" year olds or over 40... the "ish" means within a small margin that rounds up to 40. IF you remember 1st grade math you'll know 5 or more rounds up to 10 because it is the point of no return but we'll go easy on him and say 36 or older

-Matyushenko was 39 while jon was 23.. may as well round that up to 40. a 17ish year diff means we may as well round that up to 80
-Chael was 36 going on 37. a middleweight with an 11 year diff
-DC was 38 during the pico kick fight.. may as well round that up to 40. 8 year age diff
-Stipe was 42 pushing 400

If you start listing people with 8 or more years age diff the list gets pretty big. Jon is saying he shouldn't have to fight tom cause of the 7 year gap. Yet jon has fought somebody with nearly a 20 year gap. That is an entitled double standard. Not to mention Jon ducked Francis who is the same age as jon which completely nullifies that age gap excuse and proves Fear is the true reason for this ducking

Stephan Bonner was 32...
Brandon Vera was 33
Ryan Badder was 27
Mauricio Shogun was 30
Rampage Jackson — 34
Lyoto Machida — 33
Rashad Evans — 33
Vitor Belfort — 35
Chael — 36
Alexander Gustafsson 1 — 26
Glover Teixeira — 35
DC 1 — 36
OSP — 33
Alexander Gustafsson 2 — 31
Anthony Smith — 30
Thiago Santos — 35
Reyes — 30
Gane — 32
Miocic — 42


Average age of JJ's opponents (32 years old)


That's a peak age... 32 yo isn't old at all. Not to mention, DC was 36 and then 38, but so? He was so good that he was defeating opponents way younger than him. He defeated Alexander Gustafsson, Rumble Jackson, the Miocic and had tough match vs Miocic when DC was 42 and Stipe was 37. If JJ fought DC and most of his opponents were older than him (older # old... They were young still) is because they were elite at that age.

And it's BS JJ never have opportunity to young up and comers. Anthony Smith was younger than him. Reyes was younger than him. Gane was younger than him. Alexander Gustafsson was the same age as him.

Heck, Glover fought better than Jiri Prochakza at 42 yo and JJ defeated a way younger Glover who was in a 17 wins streak...

So
> "JJ fought 40ish guys" — false. He fought 30 ish guys, average 30 ~ 33 yo opponents.

> "JJ only gave opportunity to fighter older than him" — false. He defeated Anthony Smith whom was in a streak and the next big name by then, to face JJ, and was younger than JJ. Same with Reyes, was undefeated, JJ fought and defeated Reyes. Gane was also young and was on a streak, having a close fight vs Ngannou. JJ defeated him easily.


So... I don't think you have anything here. Like, it's not debatable. This is factual, you were wrong.

 

[Luffy]

Projection at its most obvious.

Literally no fight I wanna see more than Jones/Aspinall. Especially because of the $ to be made betting on Tom.

YOU don't wanna see the fight, which is why you constantly try to defend Jones avoiding it.

No, I want to see it if JJ takes the fight. If he is willing, I want because I am almost 100% sure that he'll win. Simple as that.

 

[Luffy]

How do you revisit aspinall’s reaction to the first punch of the stipe fight?

Rather watch the first stipe fight and see jon over-extend his first punch and hang his chin out

His point I think is that you are underestimating how hard Miocic punches. He'd get many 2 round KOs vs elite HWs due to how powerful his punches, specially his straight right was. Stipe was a hard puncher for HW. Not as much as Ngannou, but Aspinall doesn't punch as hard as Ngannou either. But many of Stipe's 1 round KOs vs good HWs came from well timed punches that got them off guard and bam, KO'd.

That wasn't a slow reaction by neither Stipe not JJ... Actually, Stipe's reaction and timing were on point with that first straight right he landed at JJ. Watching it live it was pretty quickly... And Stipe not only took JJ's straight left well but had time to shake that off, avoid JJ's brief single leg attempt by redirecting JJ's left arm and, before JJ could even return to his upright position, he landed a clean, quick straight right hand right at the start, similar situations in which other HWs were caught off guard and KO'd by Stipe in 1 minute of the first round. JJ's has a historical chin tho... He didn't even show himself to be affected by that punch that caught him off guard and landed clean...

 

[mkess101]

No, I want to see it if JJ takes the fight. If he is willing, I want because I am almost 100% sure that he'll win. Simple as that.

Nobody believes you. You post novels trying to justify why Jones refusing the fight is just great and nobody should be disappointed. You deep down don't think he'll win. And you'll deny that, and most of us won't believe you because your nonstop posts reek with insecurity.

 

[10000yearsold]

His point I think is that you are underestimating how hard Miocic punches. He'd get many 2 round KOs vs elite HWs due to how powerful his punches, specially his straight right was. Stipe was a hard puncher for HW. Not as much as Ngannou, but Aspinall doesn't punch as hard as Ngannou either. But many of Stipe's 1 round KOs vs good HWs came from well timed punches that got them off guard and bam, KO'd.

That wasn't a slow reaction by neither Stipe not JJ... Actually, Stipe's reaction and timing were on point with that first straight right he landed at JJ. Watching it live it was pretty quickly... And Stipe not only took JJ's straight left well but had time to shake that off, avoid JJ's brief single leg attempt by redirecting JJ's left arm and, before JJ could even return to his upright position, he landed a clean, quick straight right hand right at the start, similar situations in which other HWs were caught off guard and KO'd by Stipe in 1 minute of the first round. JJ's has a historical chin tho... He didn't even show himself to be affected by that punch that caught him off guard and landed clean...

Oh I think ya misunderstood. Jones first punch he throws he has chin out and over extends. Not stripes first punch. Would he do that against an opponent as fast as Aspinall? I hope not, is what I’m saying. He will have to be more careful than that with Aspinall.

Stipe landed a number of good shots, especially two uppercuts, and jones did back pedal but absorbed it alright. I know he’s had a great chin.

It’s the speed of Aspinall and his fast start that is a dangerous thing for anyone. And he’s not balls out stupid about it. He lays back and counters emphatically.

Jon is the far better rounded fighter and he’s a prodigy of seeing shit and doing shit that no one else can do. I completely favor jones, as I’ve said. I was just re-watching Stipe and thinking that he can not play like that with Aspinall.

I expect Jon to want to clinch up and wrestle. I mean, Aspinall is British. It’s always smart to wrestle the British if you’re a great wrestler.

 

[snugglecakes]

Stephan Bonner was 32...
Brandon Vera was 33
Ryan Badder was 27
Mauricio Shogun was 30
Rampage Jackson — 34
Lyoto Machida — 33
Rashad Evans — 33
Vitor Belfort — 35
Chael — 36
Alexander Gustafsson 1 — 26
Glover Teixeira — 35
DC 1 — 36
OSP — 33
Alexander Gustafsson 2 — 31
Anthony Smith — 30
Thiago Santos — 35
Reyes — 30
Gane — 32
Miocic — 42


Average age of JJ's opponents (32 years old)


That's a peak age... 32 yo isn't old at all. Not to mention, DC was 36 and then 38, but so? He was so good that he was defeating opponents way younger than him. He defeated Alexander Gustafsson, Rumble Jackson, the Miocic and had tough match vs Miocic when DC was 42 and Stipe was 37. If JJ fought DC and most of his opponents were older than him (older # old... They were young still) is because they were elite at that age.

And it's BS JJ never have opportunity to young up and comers. Anthony Smith was younger than him. Reyes was younger than him. Gane was younger than him. Alexander Gustafsson was the same age as him.

Heck, Glover fought better than Jiri Prochakza at 42 yo and JJ defeated a way younger Glover who was in a 17 wins streak...

So
> "JJ fought 40ish guys" — false. He fought 30 ish guys, average 30 ~ 33 yo opponents.

> "JJ only gave opportunity to fighter older than him" — false. He defeated Anthony Smith whom was in a streak and the next big name by then, to face JJ, and was younger than JJ. Same with Reyes, was undefeated, JJ fought and defeated Reyes. Gane was also young and was on a streak, having a close fight vs Ngannou. JJ defeated him easily.


So... I don't think you have anything here. Like, it's not debatable. This is factual, you were wrong.

Now tell the age differences and why did u you conveniently leave out 39 year old Vladimir Matyushenko that was 16-17 years older? Also I love how you just downplay DC being 38 in the pico kick fight. A study concluded that 34 is the average age when you can pinpoint a fighter's decline.

You still have your head up yur ass about averages speaking of them. I never mentioned anything about average age of his opponents. I simply said he fought people 40ish which means close to 40 or 40 and above and that statement is 100% true. I never stated how many. It only takes 1 and he's fought 4 that we know of. I just said he's done it and that is a 100% fact you can't get away from so drop it.

 

[SpamuraiSensei]

Jones has a ton of fight and training camp mileage on him. He isn't as fast as when he first entered the scene. There's also a lot of tape to look at now from him.

When did Fedor start slowing down and suddenly get chinny? Mid 30s?

 

[SuperAlly]

Stephan Bonner was 32...
Brandon Vera was 33
Ryan Badder was 27
Mauricio Shogun was 30
Rampage Jackson — 34
Lyoto Machida — 33
Rashad Evans — 33
Vitor Belfort — 35
Chael — 36
Alexander Gustafsson 1 — 26
Glover Teixeira — 35
DC 1 — 36
OSP — 33
Alexander Gustafsson 2 — 31
Anthony Smith — 30
Thiago Santos — 35
Reyes — 30
Gane — 32
Miocic — 42


Average age of JJ's opponents (32 years old)


That's a peak age... 32 yo isn't old at all. Not to mention, DC was 36 and then 38, but so? He was so good that he was defeating opponents way younger than him. He defeated Alexander Gustafsson, Rumble Jackson, the Miocic and had tough match vs Miocic when DC was 42 and Stipe was 37. If JJ fought DC and most of his opponents were older than him (older # old... They were young still) is because they were elite at that age.

And it's BS JJ never have opportunity to young up and comers. Anthony Smith was younger than him. Reyes was younger than him. Gane was younger than him. Alexander Gustafsson was the same age as him.

Heck, Glover fought better than Jiri Prochakza at 42 yo and JJ defeated a way younger Glover who was in a 17 wins streak...

So
> "JJ fought 40ish guys" — false. He fought 30 ish guys, average 30 ~ 33 yo opponents.

> "JJ only gave opportunity to fighter older than him" — false. He defeated Anthony Smith whom was in a streak and the next big name by then, to face JJ, and was younger than JJ. Same with Reyes, was undefeated, JJ fought and defeated Reyes. Gane was also young and was on a streak, having a close fight vs Ngannou. JJ defeated him easily.


So... I don't think you have anything here. Like, it's not debatable. This is factual, you were wrong.

Most your posts are absolute steaming turds, but fair play this one is good. You have made your point with facts. Jon fought the vast majority of his opponents around 30 years old rather than 40.

 

[AstralPanda]

Semantics here but Jon ALWAYS had a frame plenty big enough for heavyweight.

He could have moved up without the beer gut 13 years ago and been plenty big enough 6'4 235, 84 in reach, shit thats BIGGER than the average top 5 HW goat.

That beer gut is the result of waiting for Francis to leave. Mighty interesting coincidence that Jon was "Big enough for HW" the day Francis signed with PFL.

Make no mistake about it. Nothing happens by accident.
Jon is in the risk magement portion of his career.

Jones got up to like 260 at one point iirc. I was watching his Insta posts, he got big.

Then when he finally fought Gane, he was a little chubbier, seems like he lost some size

Finally he fought Stipe, he was more or less back to his LHW size. But, being out with an injury, coming off a cycle can do that

Jones was already booked for the march 2023 card to fight for the HW title like a month before ngannou left though. If you check his Twitter during that time, every post he made was about him fighting for the HW title next.

Dana said during like 3 events, Jones is fighting for the title next.

Jones very nearly fought Stipe in December 2022 before Stipe pulled out due to money issues as well.

the idea that Jones came back after ngannou left is a strange myth that is contrary to all the facts. Even ngannou and his coach said they could've took the fight for 8 mil, but felt like if he did lose, they didn't have much leverage anymore and chose to go elsewhere.

After months of negotiations, countless dinners and meetings, they were offered a physical contract to fight Jones, the capstone of the entire deal to keep him in the organization.

He refused

Whether he ducks aspinall or not remains to be seen, but Jones is the only one ready to fight when they could finally make it happen and the ufc decided to pay him and ngannou.

 

[AstralPanda]

Jones has a ton of fight and training camp mileage on him. He isn't as fast as when he first entered the scene. There's also a lot of tape to look at now from him.

When did Fedor start slowing down and suddenly get chinny? Mid 30s?

31ish.

Jones is definitely slower. But, his technique in some ways is even sharper

His boxing is a little better, some of his kicks are a little crisper. His fight IQ, range management and defensive responsibility are still very good.

Speed and youth could definitely be a big issue against him though, his reflexes are a bit slower. But Jones has aged pretty well, as far as that tends to go.

Likely because he's amongst the best defensive fighters in the sport. For as long as he's been doing this, he really hasn't been hit much.

Fedor came up in a different era, he definitely took a lot more damage when his chin started to go. So, it makes sense that Jones has a style which lends itself to longevity.

 

[AstralPanda]

Nobody believes you. You post novels trying to justify why Jones refusing the fight is just great and nobody should be disappointed. You deep down don't think he'll win. And you'll deny that, and most of us won't believe you because your nonstop posts reek with insecurity.

Pretty much all the fighters who've commented on this have more or less said the same thing

Jones has already cemented his legacy and has nothing left to prove. Aspinall doesn't add or remove anything from his legacy

If you study all the best boxers and fighters throughout time, space and history, they all become more selective and business minded when there's only one or 2 left.

Mayweather fought Berto in his retirement fight, he could've truly tested himself against the best WW's in the division, but what did he really have to gain by doing that? He was already going down as one of the best ever, so what was the point of taking a high risk, low reward fight?


with that in mind, it really just comes down to money.

Fighters chasing the final bag when they're at the end of their careers is a timeless story and they've earned that right, especially if they've given everything to a sport.

Ultimately, it comes down to the UFC. They can up their percentages and give Jones a bigger chunk of the pie, or he doesn't actually need to fight again

 

[AstralPanda]

Honestly the first punch Jon throws in the Stipe fight would have gotten him KOed by Aspinall. He’s gonna have to tighten the fuck up and get some legs.
I know he has all the tools to beat Aspinall, but the speed and power is something he should now box with.

Jones always tends to dance on the edge of what he can get away with against his opponents

He always tends to try and beat them at their own games and make fights harder than they have to be

He knows he could get away with more against Stipe, so he more or less played with him, when it could've been a much easier tko finish on the ground.

He's smart enough to not even give Aspinall such an easy opening, especially at the start of the fight. If they do fight, he will almost certainly wrestle/ tire him out for a while before deciding to stand with him.

Then it will likely be a kick heavy strategy to keep him on the outside of his punching range to make it hard to land clean.

Very difficult to actually hit someone clean with just boxing when they use their weapons, distance and frame control as well as Jones does. Then you factor in threat of the takedown, cardio and energy management going into deeper waters.

Jon's age is a factor, but there's just as many asterisks on Aspinall's overall skillset as well.

 

[SuperAlly]

31ish.

Jones is definitely slower. But, his technique in some ways is even sharper

His boxing is a little better, some of his kicks are a little crisper.

Ain't no one believes this

Jon might beat Tom, but he didn't look great against washed Stipe who looked many levels worse

 

[SuperAlly]

Pretty much all the fighters who've commented on this have more or less said the same thing

Jones has already cemented his legacy and has nothing left to prove. Aspinall doesn't add or remove anything from his legacy

If you study all the best boxers and fighters throughout time, space and history, they all become more selective and business minded when there's only one or 2 left.

Mayweather fought Berto in his retirement fight, he could've truly tested himself against the best WW's in the division, but what did he really have to gain by doing that? He was already going down as one of the best ever, so what was the point of taking a high risk, low reward fight?


with that in mind, it really just comes down to money.

Fighters chasing the final bag when they're at the end of their careers is a timeless story and they've earned that right, especially if they've given everything to a sport.

Ultimately, it comes down to the UFC. They can up their percentages and give Jones a bigger chunk of the pie, or he doesn't actually need to fight again

Of course beating Aspinall adds to his legacy

What a fucking retarded comment

Any win against a bright star adds to any fighters legacy.

To what extent may be up for debate.

But if Jon beats Tom he absolutely will and absolutely should be highly lauded for it.

Fuckimb retarded arguments as ever to justify ducking

 

[mkess101]

Pretty much all the fighters who've commented on this have more or less said the same thing

Jones has already cemented his legacy and has nothing left to prove. Aspinall doesn't add or remove anything from his legacy

If you study all the best boxers and fighters throughout time, space and history, they all become more selective and business minded when there's only one or 2 left.

Mayweather fought Berto in his retirement fight, he could've truly tested himself against the best WW's in the division, but what did he really have to gain by doing that? He was already going down as one of the best ever, so what was the point of taking a high risk, low reward fight?


with that in mind, it really just comes down to money.

Fighters chasing the final bag when they're at the end of their careers is a timeless story and they've earned that right, especially if they've given everything to a sport.

Ultimately, it comes down to the UFC. They can up their percentages and give Jones a bigger chunk of the pie, or he doesn't actually need to fight again

Well first of all, that really doesn't have much to do with my post-which was about the other poster and his obvious projection.

As to your point...sure. IF Jones is actually negotiating in good faith and just wants a bit more money then that's one thing. I'd disagree Aspinall adds nothing his legacy with a win. It legitimizes his HW stint. I agree that a loss doesn't really take away from it since Jones spent his whole career at 205. He's still gonna be looked at as a GOAT.

The problem is that we aren't privy to what Jones is actually asking for. Or if he's even given the UFC a number. He may be asking for a completely unrealistic amount and when they won't pay it, he can say "I wanted to fight Tom but they were too cheap". Or maybe the UFC are actually being too cheap--we.just don't know.

In the end I agree--the UFC is where the irritation needs to be directed by fans who want this thing to move forward. Not because they aren't just paying Jones whatever he wants (maybe it's that, if his ask is reasonable-but that seems unlikely given the $30m that was floated seeing as how he's a draw but it's not like he does a million ppv buys like Conor did). The fans can be irritated at the UFC if they continue to allow him to drag this out. If they give an ultimatum for when a deal needs to be done by or they're stripping him and moving on, it would show they view the organization as a legit sports league.

 

[JBJ was here]

That's one perspective. I look at it as "What's the optimal fighting weight for ______"

If a guy can make 205 and perform, he's a LHW. Aspinall for example could never make 205. So imo he's a "true" HW.

Once a guy cutting to get to a certain weight class starts actually hindering his performance, that's different and we reassess.

That's just how I view it.

Tom absolutely could make LHW. He's weighed in as low as the mid-240s for HW withour being nearly ripped. Dieting down to 235 and cutting 30 pounds of water would be ordinary fight prep in comparison to what a lot of top fighters in lower weight classes go through.

There have been very few good MMA HWs ever who couldn't have made LHW, but the advantage of a little extra power and weight at LHW isn't nearly as big an advantage as in the lower weight classes, so the incentive to make the tough but completely doable cut is much less.

 

[mkess101]

Tom absolutely could make LHW. He's weighed in as low as the mid-240s for HW withour being nearly ripped. Dieting down to 235 and cutting 30 pounds of water would be ordinary fight prep in comparison to what a lot of top fighters in lower weight classes go through.

There have been very few good MMA HWs ever who couldn't have made LHW, but the advantage of a little extra power and weight at LHW isn't nearly as big an advantage as in the lower weight classes, so the incentive to make the tough but completely doable cut is much less.

IDK, with his frame I think that cut would hurt him WAY more than help him. Could he potentially kill himself and get to 205 with his frame? Maybe? Dude isn't 4% body fat I get that but he's not exactly carrying a gut like plenty of HW's.

And if he did make 205, it's likely that cut would have him so drained that he'd perform far worse than at HW. Jones frame isn't the same. He has a gut and weighs in under 240 at HW (or did in one of his 2 fights). He clearly could make 205 and still have great cardio etc. Optimal weight class is being able to make it AND perform as well as you are capable. So I guess I should've have made more clear my overall point--Aspinall could never make 205 AND look anything like what he does now.

Oliveira for example made the mistake of trying to be a weight bully at 145 for a bunch of years. Wasted years because he made the weight, but killed himself to do it. Then he moves to 155 and looks like a different guy. Chiesa from 155 to 170, same thing. Looked like a corpse vs Pettis at LW, looked completely different at WW.

 

[SuperAlly]

Well first of all, that really doesn't have much to do with my post-which was about the other poster and his obvious projection.

As to your point...sure. IF Jones is actually negotiating in good faith and just wants a bit more money then that's one thing. I'd disagree Aspinall adds nothing his legacy with a win. It legitimizes his HW stint. I agree that a loss doesn't really take away from it since Jones spent his whole career at 205. He's still gonna be looked at as a GOAT.

The problem is that we aren't privy to what Jones is actually asking for. Or if he's even given the UFC a number. He may be asking for a completely unrealistic amount and when they won't pay it, he can say "I wanted to fight Tom but they were too cheap". Or maybe the UFC are actually being too cheap--we.just don't know.

In the end I agree--the UFC is where the irritation needs to be directed by fans who want this thing to move forward. Not because they aren't just paying Jones whatever he wants (maybe it's that, if his ask is reasonable-but that seems unlikely given the $30m that was floated seeing as how he's a draw but it's not like he does a million ppv buys like Conor did). The fans can be irritated at the UFC if they continue to allow him to drag this out. If they give an ultimatum for when a deal needs to be done by or they're stripping him and moving on, it would show they view the organization as a legit sports league.

Well reasoned post