Social Is cancelling over? Trump and Vance support DOGE staffer that quit after past twitter posts revealed

[Limbo Pete]

Well, no one argued that the Republic wasn't corrupt. The issue was if the Empire was "better" than the Republic and my statement was that the Empire was significantly more corrupt than the already corrupt Republic.

Nothing about that suggests that we're singing paeans to the Republic or the Senate.

It's normative judgement nonsense

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Well first of all I'm an actual historian, albeit an Americanist. The issue with that conversation, and why I said that post was on the right track, was more to do with the sort of presentism hubris that rears its head in these situations

which is true and an awful degradation of discourse. Funny enough, even Cicero had issue with it, and that was 2000 years ago, which means it's always the current thing.

current examples:
- everything is Hitler.
- every small direction of american policy is either the end of and empire or the unimpeachable start of a new one
- everyone before 1950 was a racist fascist slave owner pdf file

etc etc

 

[Limbo Pete]

which is true and an awful degradation of discourse. Funny enough, even Cicero had issue with it, and that was 2000 years ago, which means it's always the current thing.

current examples:
- everything is Hitler.
- every small direction of american policy is either the end of and empire or the unimpeachable start of a new one
- everyone before 1950 was a racist fascist slave owner pdf file

etc etc

Well, there's a difference between being dramatic, or engaging in hyperbole, and presentism in historical analysis lol

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Well, there's a difference between being dramatic, or engaging in hyperbole, and presentism in historical analysis lol

it weirdly revolves a lot around gender these days, this presentism.

 

[Limbo Pete]

it weirdly revolves a lot around gender these days, this presentism.

I'm not even gonna try to suss out where you're going with that one

 

[Rod1]

- every small direction of american policy is either the end of and empire or the unimpeachable start of a new one

I don't think the Executive claiming its not bound by either the courts or congress is a "small direction" they are openly challenging the Republic with that, whether they will succeed or not remains to be seen.

 

[panamaican]

it weirdly revolves a lot around gender these days, this presentism.

Presentism is, generally speaking, the adherence to judging the past through the moral and ethical lens of the present.

The whole conversation about "better" and even "corrupt" is us discussing a 2000 year old civilization through our lens of good, bad, better, and worse and not through the lens that the people living then would have viewed it. It's also why some dude in the 1700s saying any time in the past was the happiest time ever is suspect.

I'm not sure what modern conversations about gender have to do with the concept of presentism.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Presentism is, generally speaking, the adherence to judging the past through the moral and ethical lens of the present.

The whole conversation about "better" and even "corrupt" is us discussing a 2000 year old civilization through our lens of good, bad, better, and worse and not through the lens that the people living then would have viewed it.

yeah, all of this is known. no need for it.

It's also why some dude in the 1700s saying any time in the past was the happiest time ever is suspect.

why would that be suspect? guy is a historian and has opinions based on vast experience. this isn't mathematics. there currently isn't a "correct" way to determine it anyway. it's the skill, professional dedication, a lifetime of study and interpretation that give weight to one's personal assessment as it was made. surely more weight than some dudes speaking about it online. he's not the one being "some dude". it's you that's being "some dude".

I'm not sure what modern conversations about gender have to do with the concept of presentism.

You're not sure what modern studies that emerge from current interpretation of gender about historical persons or events have to do with presentism? seriously?

 

[Limbo Pete]

yeah, all of this is known. no need for it.

why would that be suspect? guy is a historian and has opinions based on vast experience. this isn't mathematics. there currently isn't a "correct" way to determine it anyway. it's the skill, professional dedication, a lifetime of study and interpretation that give weight to one's personal assessment as it was made. surely more weight than some dudes speaking about it online. he's not the one being "some dude". it's you that's being "some dude".


You're not sure what modern studies that emerge from current interpretation of gender about historical persons or events have to do with presentism? seriously?

Basing your historical argument on a normative judgement is bad practice at best, and flagrant fallacy at worst. There's a reason it is heavily frowned upon, and generally shredded during review. It is ahistorical to form a thesis based on moral judgrment. It's not something that can generally hold up to evidence based scrutiny because normative judgements are entirely subjective at root, and simply saying how you "feel", as an argument, says nothing outside of itself

 

[panamaican]

yeah, all of this is known. no need for it.

why would that be suspect? guy is a historian and has opinions based on vast experience. this isn't mathematics. there currently isn't a "correct" way to determine it anyway. it's the skill, professional dedication, a lifetime of study and interpretation that give weight to one's personal assessment as it was made. surely more weight than some dudes speaking about it online. he's not the one being "some dude". it's you that's being "some dude".


You're not sure what modern studies that emerge from current interpretation of gender about historical persons or events have to do with presentism? seriously?

Okay, this skilled historian determined "happiness" by what metric and how did he assess the happiness of the Empire era Romans?

More importantly, how did he assess and then compare it to the happiness of the Aztecs, the Olmecs, the Gauls, the happiness of the residents of the Kingdom of Kush, the pre-Han Chinese, etc.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Basing your historical argument on a normative judgement is bad practice at best, and flagrant fallacy at worst. There's a reason it is heavily frowned upon, and generally shredded during review. It is ahistorical to form a thesis based on moral judgrment. It's not something that can generally hold up to evidence based scrutiny because normative judgements are entirely subjective at root, and simply saying how you "feel", as an argument, says nothing outside of itself

This is presentism.

 

[Limbo Pete]

This is presentism.

You keep using that word, but I'm not convinced you know what it means lmao

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Okay, this skilled historian determined "happiness" by what metric and how did he assess the happiness of the Empire era Romans?

by thinking about it i guess. he didn't say it was mathematically correct, it was just a commentary. what's wrong with that?

More importantly, how did he assess and then compare it to the happiness of the Aztecs, the Olmecs, the Gauls, the happiness of the residents of the Kingdom of Kush, the pre-Han Chinese, etc.

by being a historian?

 

[Fox by the Sea]

You keep using that word, but I'm not convinced you know what it means lmao

i mean, i can say the same about you.


also lmao

 

[Limbo Pete]

i mean, i can say the same about you.


also lmao

This devolved faster than anticipated lol

 

[Fox by the Sea]

This devolved faster than anticipated lol

you know you can end a post without the lols and lmaos in this case.
this isn't a hostile conversation, no need for end-post assurances of it.

 

[Limbo Pete]

by thinking about it i guess. he didn't say it was mathematically correct, it was just a commentary. what's wrong with that?

by being a historian?

He assessed the happiness of ancient Romans by... thinking about it? My friend, do you have any idea what a historian even does lol

 

[Fox by the Sea]

He assessed the happiness of ancient Romans by... thinking about it? My friend, do you have any idea what a historian even does lol

Yeah, lives in poverty.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Yeah, lives in poverty.

There's no need to get hot and bothered dude lol I was just trying to explain why your argument with Rod made no sense as any kind of historical reference. It's perfectly fine to speak casually about historical topics in normative or hyperbolic ways; everyone does it all the time, me included. But if you're going to start supporting those judgements of feeling with supposedly credible source citation, then I'd recommend learning how people who practice this stuff professionally actually do the work lmao

 

[Fox by the Sea]

But if you're going to start supporting those judgements of feeling with supposedly credible source citation, then I'd recommend learning how people who practice this stuff professionally actually do the work lmao

You're making forum posting sound like a dreadful affair.