International Vance, Zelensky, Trump argue in front of press

[A Very Serious Cat]

I think if the average Ukrainian was against it we'd be seeing a lot of civil unrest and demonstrations to surrender but I'm not really seeing any evidence of that.

I think any attempt at civil unrest would swiftly be labeled as Russian sympathisers and arrested or worse

 

[ChosenOne]

We'd be insane to make a deal like that. I see 0 benefit.

What benefit to Ukraine do you see in the deal Trump has been pushing on them?

Why won't you answer that Seano. Three requests now and not one attempt to answer.

Hmmmm???

 

[Anewt]

I think if the average Ukrainian was against it we'd be seeing a lot of civil unrest and demonstrations to surrender but I'm not really seeing any evidence of that.

How so? Over 60 000 were charged with desertion in 2024... thats not people draft dodging btw........

— In 2023 and the first half of 2024, the number of reports on draft dodgers tripled to 316,000

They are on war terms where they have no elections... press control to the extent casualty numbers arent even reported.

You think theyre going to report on unrest ? Literally the reason for the control of the press is to control the narrative........ things not being reported is not good evidence.

Its like saying if the average north korean was against their situation .. theyd report it heh

 

[Cajun]

What benefit to Ukraine do you see in the deal Trump has been pushing on them?

Why won't you answer that Seano. Three requests now and not one attempt to answer.

Hmmmm??

Zelinsky seems eager about the deal that the US will provide some technology and equipment and personnel while also providing jobs and sharing of those resources. It's strengthens the ties ultimately between the countries both in terms of security and economics. As far as I know the US will get money returned but whatever advances have been achieved in mining those resources will stay with Ukraine ultimately and possibly open up more trade deals with the US and others.

Zelinsky did an interview just following the meeting and indicated that it was a good thing.

 

[ChosenOne]

I’m an isolationist and I don’t apologize for it.

Defund Israel.

Stop the blank checks to Ukraine.

Focus on China as your #1 threat.

Ok that is good to know and i mean that earnestly.

So what exactly does "isolationism" mean to you and how does it work? How do you "focus on China" as an Isolationist?

If your view of isolationism is "defend no one other than the US if attacked", do you see this as a sustainable strategy at least until you die and then who cares? Or do you think that if China and Russia start gobbling up any countries not strong enough to stop them, that it will not eventually force America to fight them, once they are far stronger?

 

[Bob Sagat]

What benefit to Ukraine do you see in the deal Trump has been pushing on them?

Why won't you answer that Seano. Three requests now and not one attempt to answer.

Hmmmm???

you're not really talking about the same thing though

 

[aerius]

Majority of russians are pro war, anyone who has any ties to ex soviet countries and interacts with russians regularly knows this.

Shit i have heard nothing but pro war stuff from russians

No kidding, a lot of the Russian and former Soviets I know make Putin look like a fucking peacenik. They literally want to burn Ukraine to the ground and they don't particularly care about how many people die.

 

[ChosenOne]

@Rob Battisti i would add to that last post, 'can you cite a single example, that you know of in earth history where isolationism insulated a country from war, since you seem to be saying you hold this position because you are against war at all costs?

 

[ChosenOne]

you're not really talking about the same thing though

Sure we are.

Seano is saying 'he does not see how the US benefits in what was said, and thus why would the US accept that deal'?

I am saying 'i do not see how Ukraine benefits in anything the US is pushing, and thus why would Ukraine accept the deal'?

He has done his analysis on the first and offers his view but refuses to even comment on the second.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

How so? Over 60 000 were charged with desertion in 2024... thats not people draft dodging btw........

— In 2023 and the first half of 2024, the number of reports on draft dodgers tripled to 316,000

They are on war terms where they have no elections... press control to the extent casualty numbers arent even reported.

You think theyre going to report on unrest ? Literally the reason for the control of the press is to control the narrative........ things not being reported is not good evidence.

Its like saying if the average north korean was against their situation .. theyd report it heh

I think North Korea has rather less press access to their country than Ukraine tbf.

 

[Cole train]

No kidding, a lot of the Russian and former Soviets I know make Putin look like a fucking peacenik. They literally want to burn Ukraine to the ground and they don't particularly care about how many people die.

People not familiar with region just dont get that ordinary people were discussing 22 esque assault on ukraine already back in 2014 and ukr is a "question that needs to be resolved" like one guy told me

Shit dudaev called this war in 90s already

 

[Fox by the Sea]

People not familiar with region just dont get that ordinary people were discussing 22 esque assault on ukraine already back in 2014 and ukr is a "question that needs to be resolved" like one guy told me

Shit dudaev called this war in 90s already

we're in the "aggressive frontier negotiations" era once again. i expect it to last for many decades and it to be a global thing. anyone expecting to get back to nice cold war type peace is in for a rude awakening.

 

[ShinkanPo]

I'm amazed people think trump and vance look good here.

Yeah, demand that the rest of the world suck putin's cock as hard as you do, or you won't get a deal so vague no one can even identify how it benefits Ukraine. Zelensky should just call them cowards and sit there and watch the meltdown.

Its a cult dude.

Trumo could release human excrement on their face and they will say its all good.

 

[Bob Sagat]

Sure we are.

Seano is saying 'he does not see how the US benefits in what was said, and thus why would the US accept that deal'?

I am saying 'i do not see how Ukraine benefits in anything the US is pushing, and thus why would Ukraine accept the deal'?

He has done his analysis on the first and offers his view but refuses to even comment on the second.

we're not in direct war and we are not dependent on other countries for our defense -- so this is very much not equivalent.
of course the ukraine deal is bad, but we don't have to pay for ukraine's defenses either beyond the efforts we've already showed.

 

[Anewt]

I think North Korea has rather less press access to their country than Ukraine tbf.

Well yeah heh. Went a bit hyperbolic. Of course north koreans are far worse off. But my point stands in terms of how the media is used throughout the war . The numbers are extremely high to allow me to assume the average ukranian is happy to fight this war.


In 2023 and the first half of 2024, the number of reports on draft dodgers tripled to 316,000.

Just to clarify how large those numbers are for that time period and population

[ usa ww2 draft ]
About 4% of those inducted into the U.S. military during World War II were draft evaders, or about 373,000 people.

 

[nhbbear]

I didn't take it as that. I saw he made a misstep in the characterization and Zelensky took offense.

What happened to diplomacy? Under trump, we will become the most hated First Nation and our allies are going to be jumping ship. What good comes out of this kind of arguing? vance kept talking over him and firing questions and statements at him. Again, this is an ally. I am against how much money we are sending Ukraine while that money could have solved a ton of issues in our own country but we are unwilling to spend that much here. And the rumors of trump liking putin do make me wonder in this kind of situation.

Now, a question. Is trump offering aid only if they give us mineral rights? I didn’t go beyond the videos. If so, that’s good and bad. Good because we will actually be getting something of value back for our support. Bad because after all of this, Ukraine will become a poor nation without natural resources.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Where's the minerals, Zelensky? Where are they??

WHERE'S THE FUCKING MINERALS SHITHEAD!!!
View attachment 1084397

Google-Ergebnis für https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/kNMAAOSwjSxlWZDt/s-l1200.jpg

 

[curryjunkie]

Trump with all his flaws is the only leader seriously talking about peace and working towards that, which is more than we’ve seen in a long time.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Well yeah heh. Went a bit hyperbolic. Of course north koreans are far worse off. But my point stands in terms of how the media is used throughout the war . The numbers are extremely high to allow me to assume the average ukranian is happy to fight this war.


In 2023 and the first half of 2024, the number of reports on draft dodgers tripled to 316,000.

Just to clarify how large those numbers are for that time period and population

[ usa ww2 draft ]
About 4% of those inducted into the U.S. military during World War II were draft evaders, or about 373,000 people.

There's always going to be draft dodgers dude. I don't take that as a sign that the country doesn't want to be involved in the war unless it's huge numbers.

In terms of comparing it to WW2 draft dodging numbers, I think people in general were far more obedient to their government then and also far more patriotic in general so I would expect the numbers from them to be very small.

 

[nhbbear]

Even if this was some type of planned provocation by Zelensky, there's still no reason to give him that moment on live TV.

You could just cordially disagree with his assessment, and acknowledge that some issues will still need to be addressed. And if necessary, chew him out in private, if he did indeed lead Trump and Vance on privately, and then change his tune in front of the media.

An experienced negotiator ought to be familiar with such tactics. Dude has been dealing with interviewers who've pulled that stuff on him for decades. Trump isn't supposed to be some big baby who needs everyone to cater to his needs, or otherwise he "loses his cool". You don't get to "lose your cool" as the most powerful man in the world. You need to be smart, calculating and patient.

It seems to me like Trump got a little too used to his "fast food" approach to resolving conflicts, which was to just threaten countries with tariffs or use executive orders to get his way. This situation is going to require a lot more effort invested into it. He's not going to get his Nobel Peace Prize for free. He's going to have to work for it. Trying for about a week and then throwing your hands up because someone didn't agree to your initial suggestion, that's just not going to cut it.

This was a performance by vance to appease maga