International Trump: US will take over Gaza, resettle Palestinians

[Larzon]

Conflict between Israel and Palestine.

Do people honestly think Israel isn't an American puppet state?

 

[DoctorTaco]

Do people honestly think Israel isn't an American puppet state?

Hard to say who’s pulling who’s strings from where I’m sitting

 

[Fergelmince]

Ah yes, the classic strawman. If only there was an option or two between brutal military occupation for decades and give terrorists complete freedom to operate.

Keep up the bad faith shitposting.

Yes, the Arab states have primarily been more interested in using Palestine to score easy points rather than sincerely engaging with the issue, let alone trying to improve the situation long term.

Who's running the Gazan government?

 

[kflo]

Who is they?

You’re asking who went to war with Israel?

We've been over this. Democratization takes time. Plenty of blame to go around, but Israel has been more than happy to sideline or target moderate Palestinians. And occupation and constant conflict tends to breed extremism and the allure of it. Again, of which Israel had a hand in. As an American, I can influence my ally more than other countries, and I also hold my allies to a higher standard than random terror groups and tyrants.

As an American we can hold foreign actors accountable for their role in breeding hate and funding terrorism with a goal of not recognizing Israel’s right to exist. Too much of the Arab / Muslim world is invested in continuing the conflict and dangling hope of a right of return to Palestinians. Which is why the majority of them are not in favor of a 2 state solution and they’d rather be multigenerational refugees than have peace.

Again, has Israel ever not faced a material threat to the safety of their citizens?

 

[avenue94]

Who's running the Gazan government?

Hamas mostly atm, Gaza hasn't seen free and fair elections recently, if ever.

You’re asking who went to war with Israel?

You tossed out they with no antecedent and were also claiming these were wars of genocide. I also never mentioned those wars, hence I asked for clarification on what tangent you were going on.

Again, has Israel ever not faced a material threat to the safety of their citizens?

Material threats never going away, every country face them. If you're asking when's the last time they faced an existential threat, it's been about 50 or 60 years..

Which is why the majority of them are not in favor of a 2 state solution and they’d rather be multigenerational refugees than have peace.

Be honest. If you were a Gazan born in the 90s or 2000s, what would be your impression of Israel? Set aside socialization and just focus on how they would perceive Israel vis a vis their people or region.

Too much of the Arab / Muslim world is invested in continuing the conflict and dangling hope of a right of return to Palestinians.

I listed that. And yet the US already leans on those more distant allies. It can do that and lean more on Israel. Frankly, at this point the latter is the main issue in getting traction going forward on any agreements. You can see that already from the Napkin map days.

 

[Fergelmince]

Hamas mostly atm, Gaza hasn't seen free and fair elections recently, if ever.

No shit. Weird how you didn't mention them a few posts back.

 

[avenue94]

No shit. Weird how you didn't mention them a few posts back.

Where did I not mention them where I should have exactly? Once again, you only seek to deflect and defend your partisan worldview, without actually substantively engaging with the issues.

 

[MacGregor]

 

[Fergelmince]

Where did I not mention them where I should have exactly? Once again, you only seek to deflect and defend your partisan worldview, without actually substantively engaging with the issues.

How about under "Accountability." Nice ad hominem, btw.

 

[kflo]

Hamas mostly atm, Gaza hasn't seen free and fair elections recently, if ever.

You tossed out they with no antecedent and were also claiming these were wars of genocide. I also never mentioned those wars, hence I asked for clarification on what tangent you were going on.

I noted that “they” went to war with Israel at Israel’s inception. With the goal of eradicating Israel. I said nothing of genocide. But what I said was true. You never mentioned those wars. Exactly. You are ignoring a key part of the history. The constant threat to Israel’s existence. From neighbors who want to see them gone.

Material threats never going away, every country face them. If you're asking when's the last time they faced an existential threat, it's been about 50 or 60 years..

The only reason you don’t think Israel has an existential threat is because of how successful they’ve been at stopping their enemies from executing on their plans. Had Israel taken a more passive position the threat increases. And that’s what you’re suggesting they should do. And because they’ve prioritized the safety of their people, you’ve blamed them.

Be honest. If you were a Gazan born in the 90s or 2000s, what would be your impression of Israel? Set aside socialization and just focus on how they would perceive Israel vis a vis their people or region.

If I was a Gazan I’d be indoctrinated by a terrorist organization from birth, as well as ruled ruthlessly by same terrorist organization who prioritizes terror activities over the people of Gaza. I’d also have enablers who don’t give a fuck about me whispering in my ear about my right to return, and that if we just stay at it we’ll achieve our goals.

But if I could actually talk to people with my best interest in mind, I’d think I’d be more focused on securing a better future for my family than being a martyr.

I listed that. And yet the US already leans on those more distant allies. It can do that and lean more on Israel. Frankly, at this point the latter is the main issue in getting traction going forward on any agreements. You can see that already from the Napkin map days.

We do very little with those more distant allies, and less with those distant enemies. And “agreements” with who?? And Israel was making progress with their neighbors when Hamas (and Iran, and Qatar, and Lebanon, etc) decided that was not going to happen. Because normalizing relations with Israel means recognizing their right to exist.

 

[avenue94]

How about under "Accountability." Nice ad hominem, btw.

Course they have some. But the difference in destruction and death in Gaza this time versus previous conflicts comes down to Israel significantly loosening its ROE and setting an unrealistic goal of annihilating an ideological group with no actual plan of what to do post war.

Israel achieved its military objective of degrading Hamas several months ago.

I noted that “they” went to war with Israel at Israel’s inception. With the goal of eradicating Israel. I said nothing of genocide. But what I said was true. You never mentioned those wars. Exactly. You are ignoring a key part of the history. The constant threat to Israel’s existence. From neighbors who want to see them gone.

They doesn't mean a whole lot given how much regimes have changed in the Middle East through the decades. And now you want to bring in context, of course. You want to arbitrarily make the start of this conflict the first war, as opposed to its actual origin: colonialism tinged with Zionism.

If you want to solve a colonial/anti-colonial conflict, you have to address the main issue: colonialism and how to resolve it.

And again, Israel has not faced a threat to its existence in over 50 years.

The only reason you don’t think Israel has an existential threat is because of how successful they’ve been at stopping their enemies from executing on their plans. Had Israel taken a more passive position the threat increases. And that’s what you’re suggesting they should do. And because they’ve prioritized the safety of their people, you’ve blamed them.

No it's because I acknowledge that Israel illegally stole and brilliantly researched their way to being a nuclear power. And with the obtainment of nuclear weapons, no country could threaten them with destruction anymore. You saw that in 67, when Israel used its nuclear weapons to blackmail the US into resupplying it.

If I was a Gazan I’d be indoctrinated by a terrorist organization from birth, as well as ruled ruthlessly by same terrorist organization who prioritizes terror activities over the people of Gaza. I’d also have enablers who don’t give a fuck about me whispering in my ear about my right to return, and that if we just stay at it we’ll achieve our goals.

But if I could actually talk to people with my best interest in mind, I’d think I’d be more focused on securing a better future for my family than being a martyr.

So no attempt to answer the question or acknowledge the basic truth that Israel has given Gazans few reasons to love them or work with them, while at the same time giving them copious reasons to hate them and see them as a bad peace partner. No mention of the decades of brutal occupation, an inhuman blockade, constant humiliation at the hands of security forces, and of course the mass amounts of civilian targeting for death that Israel has sanctioned and even encouraged.

Again, you act like you're surprised that an occupied region's population hates their colonial occupiers. Like...do you root for the Empire instead of the rebels in Star Wars or something?

And Israel was making progress with their neighbors when Hamas (and Iran, and Qatar, and Lebanon, etc) decided that was not going to happen. Because normalizing relations with Israel means recognizing their right to exist.

And now we have Arab countries who are adamant about not pursuing future diplomatic overtures because of Israel's conduct and Trump's idiotic proposal that satisfied no one but the most extreme of Israel's leadership.

And we do quite a bit with these allies. There's a reason Morsi isn't in charge of Egypt anymore and that democratization died a premature death there.

 

[Fergelmince]

Course they have some. But the difference in destruction and death in Gaza this time versus previous conflicts comes down to Israel significantly loosening its ROE and setting an unrealistic goal of annihilating an ideological group with no actual plan of what to do post war.

Israel achieved its military objective of degrading Hamas several months ago.

Do you think Hamas was justified in their attack on October 7th?

 

[avenue94]

Do you think Hamas was justified in their attack on October 7th?

No. I don't endorse the mass targeting of civilians in wartime.

Do you think Israel's loosened rules of engagement and sanctioning of mass killings of civilians has improved the chances of Gazans backing more moderate groups?

 

[DoctorTaco]

Trump calling a hostage fat is the perfect Trump move

 

[kflo]

Course they have some. But the difference in destruction and death in Gaza this time versus previous conflicts comes down to Israel significantly loosening its ROE and setting an unrealistic goal of annihilating an ideological group with no actual plan of what to do post war.

Israel achieved its military objective of degrading Hamas several months ago.

They doesn't mean a whole lot given how much regimes have changed in the Middle East through the decades. And now you want to bring in context, of course. You want to arbitrarily make the start of this conflict the first war, as opposed to its actual origin: colonialism tinged with Zionism.

If you want to solve a colonial/anti-colonial conflict, you have to address the main issue: colonialism and how to resolve it.

And again, Israel has not faced a threat to its existence in over 50 years.

No it's because I acknowledge that Israel illegally stole and brilliantly researched their way to being a nuclear power. And with the obtainment of nuclear weapons, no country could threaten them with destruction anymore. You saw that in 67, when Israel used its nuclear weapons to blackmail the US into resupplying it.

So no attempt to answer the question or acknowledge the basic truth that Israel has given Gazans few reasons to love them or work with them, while at the same time giving them copious reasons to hate them and see them as a bad peace partner. No mention of the decades of brutal occupation, an inhuman blockade, constant humiliation at the hands of security forces, and of course the mass amounts of civilian targeting for death that Israel has sanctioned and even encouraged.

Again, you act like you're surprised that an occupied region's population hates their colonial occupiers. Like...do you root for the Empire instead of the rebels in Star Wars or something?

And now we have Arab countries who are adamant about not pursuing future diplomatic overtures because of Israel's conduct and Trump's idiotic proposal that satisfied no one but the most extreme of Israel's leadership.

And we do quite a bit with these allies. There's a reason Morsi isn't in charge of Egypt anymore and that democratization died a premature death there.

Remember it was YOU who brought up “decades” of “brutal military occupation” as if that happened in a vacuum.

Again, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. That was a reason to work with them. What did they do in response, immediately? They elected Hamas. And you want to talk about what a gazan born and living through that time would think about Israel?? Israel’s ONLY option was to contain Gaza. Gaza had a chance. They ruined it through their own actions. Again, you throw around “colonial occupier” as if gazan’s left Israel with any choice to give them full autonomy. lol at using the term “peace partner” when you have Hamas representing one side of the “partnership”. You laughably reference “inhuman blockades” while taking great offense with “full autonomy”.

And lol at the main issue being “colonialism”.

 

[Mr Holmes]

Israel can kiss my ass they are war mongering criminals in every sense of the word.

We should cut off ALL aide to Israel and it sickens me to have our president essentially kissing up to them.

Israel did. It’s a failure on Israel’s behalf for not taking precautions to protect their civilians.

Honestly, credit to @Rob Battisti and @Mr Holmes for being consistent about cutting the strings off on all wars even when it comes to siding with Israel. Israel can deal with this mess that they salted the wounds for. Netanyahu knew what Hamas was and he strong armed them for years to weaken the secular PLO to decrease the chance of peace and a 2 state solution.

 

[Fergelmince]

No. I don't endorse the mass targeting of civilians in wartime.

Do you think Israel's loosened rules of engagement and sanctioning of mass killings of civilians has improved the chances of Gazans backing more moderate groups?

Bro, I can't stand Israel and I think both Israel's government and Hamas are a scourge on society. If they did as you describe above, yes, go after the decision makers, charge and prosecute them with everything possible under international law.

Regarding the civilian population, there are plenty of Israelis who look down their nose at the rest of the world, they think they are entitled to US and EU taxpayer dollars and they are perfectly happy with the Israeli military's response to Oct. 7th. There are also plenty of Palestinian civilians who are muslim extremists, view ALL non-muslims around the world as infidels and enemies who deserve subjugation and worse.

I'm not choosing sides here just because one side was capable of destruction level 4 and the other is capable of destruction level 20.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Bro, I can't stand Israel and I think both Israel's government and Hamas are a scourge on society. If they did as you describe above, yes, go after the decision makers, charge and prosecute them with everything possible under international law.

Regarding the civilian population, there are plenty of Israelis who look down their nose at the rest of the world, they think they are entitled to US and EU taxpayer dollars and they are perfectly happy with the Israeli military's response to Oct. 7th. There are also plenty of Palestinian civilians who are muslim extremists, view ALL non-muslims around the world as infidels and enemies who deserve subjugation and worse.

I'm not choosing sides here just because one side was capable of destruction level 4 and the other is capable of destruction level 20.

Agreed

 

[avenue94]

Remember it was YOU who brought up “decades” of “brutal military occupation” as if that happened in a vacuum.

Because once again, decades of occupation erodes civil society and moderate voices in any conflict. There are options between military occupation with no civil rights and don't do anything. When has military occupation and martial law successfully quelled independence movements exactly? I've ask you this question many times, and you usually duck the answer because you realize history is quite clear on how that approach usually goes.

Again, you throw around “colonial occupier” as if gazan’s left Israel with any choice to give them full autonomy. lol at using the term “peace partner” when you have Hamas representing one side of the “partnership”. You laughably reference “inhuman blockades” while taking great offense with “full autonomy”.

Herzl himself described the project as colonialism, and that is the inflection point that started the road to the modern conflict.

I've also noted that Gaza has never had free and fair elections, nor has it ever had full autonomy. My problem is your inability to see Gazans as anything more than supporters of Hamas, actively or passively. It's awful logic.

And lol at the main issue being “colonialism”.

Remind me again what started the conflict in the region between Arabs and Jews around WWI, let's say.

Bro, I can't stand Israel and I think both Israel's government and Hamas are a scourge on society. If they did as you describe above, yes, go after the decision makers, charge and prosecute them with everything possible under international law.

I mean...never gonna happen, especially under Trump. I think the point you probably misinterpret about my position on Hamas is I think we need to deal with them because they're the only game in town. Not because they are legitimate or have the interests of Gaza at heart.

There are also plenty of Palestinian civilians who are muslim extremists, view ALL non-muslims around the world as infidels and enemies who deserve subjugation and worse.

Yeah, we don't give those guys JDAMs. That's the difference you miss here. Israel this time around opted for open season on Palestinian civilians, in a clear break from even their most heavy handed of conflicts previously. In those conflicts, you'd at least see some punishment, even if just a slap on the write, for things like the Flour Massacre. These days, nothing, because inflicting death and misery on the civilian population of Gaza is a goal now.

 

[Fergelmince]

I mean...never gonna happen, especially under Trump. I think the point you probably misinterpret about my position on Hamas is I think we need to deal with them because they're the only game in town. Not because they are legitimate or have the interests of Gaza at heart.

Yeah, we don't give those guys JDAMs. That's the difference you miss here. Israel this time around opted for open season on Palestinian civilians, in a clear break from even their most heavy handed of conflicts previously. In those conflicts, you'd at least see some punishment, even if just a slap on the write, for things like the Flour Massacre. These days, nothing, because inflicting death and misery on the civilian population of Gaza is a goal now.

I'm definitely not saying anything will happen to Israel, but I am by no means an Israel supporter.

It's incredibly naive to not acknowledge the lines are a lot more blurred between muslim civilians and muslim combatants.