International Trump: US will take over Gaza, resettle Palestinians

[avenue94]

I'm definitely not saying anything will happen to Israel, but I am by no means an Israel supporter.

It's incredibly naive to not acknowledge the lines are a lot more blurred between muslim civilians and muslim combatants.

They are, but like...compared to Vietnam? Or any number of other anti-colonial insurgencies? Not significantly more. And the lesson is always the same. You can't kill your way out of those conflicts, you'll end up with just more recruits for extremists. You have to offer a carrot, not just the stick. That's where Israel has really faltered in recent decades, and there's a reason that nearly everyone who has worked with Bibid doesn't have a positive opinion of him.

 

[Fergelmince]

They are, but like...compared to Vietnam? Or any number of other anti-colonial insurgencies? Not significantly more. And the lesson is always the same. You can't kill your way out of those conflicts, you'll end up with just more recruits for extremists. You have to offer a carrot, not just the stick. That's where Israel has really faltered in recent decades, and there's a reason that nearly everyone who has worked with Bibid doesn't have a positive opinion of him.

Again, I'm not taking a side or absolving anyone of accountability just because one side is capable of much more destruction than the other.

 

[kflo]

Because once again, decades of occupation erodes civil society and moderate voices in any conflict. There are options between military occupation with no civil rights and don't do anything. When has military occupation and martial law successfully quelled independence movements exactly? I've ask you this question many times, and you usually duck the answer because you realize history is quite clear on how that approach usually goes.

Stop with the “no civil rights” in Gaza nonsense as if that falls on israel.

What should Israel have done after unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza and Hamas was elected?

Herzl himself described the project as colonialism, and that is the inflection point that started the road to the modern conflict.

yeah, that’s your opinion.

You ever consider he didn’t mean it in a context of violently displacing another group but in building Jewish colonies in Israel?

The Arab / Muslim region was against Jews moving in. And they started a counter movement.

I've also noted that Gaza has never had free and fair elections, nor has it ever had full autonomy. My problem is your inability to see Gazans as anything more than supporters of Hamas, actively or passively. It's awful logic.

You keep mentioning “free and fair elections” as if it has any meaning in this conflict. Or are you suggesting something…….

They won the election. Immediately after Israel withdrew. Again, what autonomy would you give Hamas???

Remind me again what started the conflict in the region between Arabs and Jews around WWI, let's say.

You tell me. What “started the conflict”?

 

[avenue94]

Stop with the “no civil rights” in Gaza nonsense as if that falls on israel.

What should Israel have done after unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza and Hamas was elected?

Was Israel not to blame during their lengthy occupation of Gaza for the imposition of martial law and suspension of civil liberties?

After withdrawing, probably engaged with the peace process more. The napkin proposal and Kerry negotiations were promising. Not continuing to approve settlements that only embolden the right wing and force Israel's governing coalitions further to the right. As for the region as a whole, an emphasis on civil rights and fostering civil society.

yeah, that’s your opinion.

It's historical fact. That's what he described the project as.

You ever consider he didn’t mean it in a context of violently displacing another group but in building Jewish colonies in Israel?

Oh no he definitely meant it in that context, particularly since he concluded that Jewish migration to the region would ultimately lead to revolts from the natives.

Colonialism is inherently violent, there's no non-violent version of it.

You keep mentioning “free and fair elections” as if it has any meaning in this conflict. Or are you suggesting something…….

They won the election. Immediately after Israel withdrew. Again, what autonomy would you give Hamas???

Mostly internal, and not a blockade that heavily restricts civilian goods and only antagonizes the population.

Free and fair elections are relevant because you keep blaming Gaza for Hamas being in power, despite them not attaining their power democratically. You might as well blame the Soviets for not voting for their totalitarian government.

You tell me. What “started the conflict”?

Mass Jewish settlement into the region for the purpose of colonizing it, coupled with duplicitous negotiations from the British and other imperial powers that greatly aggrieved what would become the Arab states.

 

[MacGregor]

 

[evergreenrider]

I’m sure you believe that. And that Israeli’s are just going along with their family and friends being murdered en masse……

Hannibal at Erez, dispatch a Zik [attack drone]," came the command on October 7.
Yes, Israel would never risk harm to their own...

 

[kflo]

Was Israel not to blame during their lengthy occupation of Gaza for the imposition of martial law and suspension of civil liberties?

are we pretending there wasn't yet another war and violence towards israelis?

After withdrawing, probably engaged with the peace process more. The napkin proposal and Kerry negotiations were promising. Not continuing to approve settlements that only embolden the right wing and force Israel's governing coalitions further to the right. As for the region as a whole, an emphasis on civil rights and fostering civil society.

once again, completely ignoring that hamas was elected and was in charge of gaza.

It's historical fact. That's what he described the project as.

i just looked back and realized you called it the "inflection point that started the road to the modern conflict.". lol. it's interesting that alot of you have access to quotes that only attempt to point the finger at the jews, but never quote other zionists that preach for peace with the local population. i think you may need to diversify your sources.....

jews immigrating to palestine by definition can be called the "inflection point" because they wouldn't be there to conflict without being there. but there are lots of "inflection points". arab / muslims ALSO immigrated to palestine. and the broader arab / muslim world wanted to protect their monopoly. suggesting the only "inflection point" was hezl in 1902 is a joke. jews had a right to be there.

and for reference, again:

and the colonizers are the little red dot.......

Oh no he definitely meant it in that context, particularly since he concluded that Jewish migration to the region would ultimately lead to revolts from the natives.

Colonialism is inherently violent, there's no non-violent version of it.

it's not inherently violent and the land was available, with alot of it undesirable land.....at the time........

Mostly internal, and not a blockade that heavily restricts civilian goods and only antagonizes the population.

Free and fair elections are relevant because you keep blaming Gaza for Hamas being in power, despite them not attaining their power democratically. You might as well blame the Soviets for not voting for their totalitarian government.

who did gazan's elect?

and fuck, even with restrictions hamas STILL built terror infrastructure throughout ALL of gaza.

Mass Jewish settlement into the region for the purpose of colonizing it, coupled with duplicitous negotiations from the British and other imperial powers that greatly aggrieved what would become the Arab states.

again, look at the map above. "mass settlement" is relative. there was a tiny area where no nation stood that was mostly sparsely populated. there was no palestinian national identity, jews purchased land, and had a right to settle there. the idea that only arab / muslims belong there is just a fallacy. jews had just as much of a right to settle there as the incoming arab / muslims (that are now "palestinian refugees").

 

[Corona]

Goatnald is about to lay the smack down on Humus. They dont want to get in the way of him building Gaz a Lago or they’ll feel his wrath.

 

[filthybliss]

You tell me. What “started the conflict”?

there was a tiny area where no nation stood that was mostly sparsely populated. there was no palestinian national identity, jews purchased land, and had a right to settle there. the idea that only arab / muslims belong there is just a fallacy. jews had just as much of a right to settle there as the incoming arab / muslims (that are now "palestinian refugees").

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion.


“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion

Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

The First PM of Israel looked at the conflict with more nuance than you do. If you think Herzl would approve of the current Israeli Establishment, you are notoriously wrong. Benny Morris wrote an article recently detailing how sinister of a turn that Israel is taking here.....

 

[SuperAlly]

Simple sherdog heuristic, if you are saying the opposite of avenue94 you are almost certainly correct. Far left extremism is never good.

 

[Xanzito]

Damn, the Don really smacked him around. Never believed he could do it.

King of Jordan offers to take in thousands of Palestinian children from Gaza | Fox News Video

President Donald Trump answers reporters' questions while meeting with King Abdullah II of Jordan at the White House as the pair discuss the long-term plan for the Gaza Strip.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Motivated BJ Penn]

are we pretending there wasn't yet another war and violence towards israelis?


once again, completely ignoring that hamas was elected and was in charge of gaza.

i just looked back and realized you called it the "inflection point that started the road to the modern conflict.". lol. it's interesting that alot of you have access to quotes that only attempt to point the finger at the jews, but never quote other zionists that preach for peace with the local population. i think you may need to diversify your sources.....

jews immigrating to palestine by definition can be called the "inflection point" because they wouldn't be there to conflict without being there. but there are lots of "inflection points". arab / muslims ALSO immigrated to palestine. and the broader arab / muslim world wanted to protect their monopoly. suggesting the only "inflection point" was hezl in 1902 is a joke. jews had a right to be there.

and for reference, again:

and the colonizers are the little red dot.......


it's not inherently violent and the land was available, with alot of it undesirable land.....at the time........

who did gazan's elect?

and fuck, even with restrictions hamas STILL built terror infrastructure throughout ALL of gaza.



again, look at the map above. "mass settlement" is relative. there was a tiny area where no nation stood that was mostly sparsely populated. there was no palestinian national identity, jews purchased land, and had a right to settle there. the idea that only arab / muslims belong there is just a fallacy. jews had just as much of a right to settle there as the incoming arab / muslims (that are now "palestinian refugees").

Jews had no right to establish a jewish ethnocracy on land already inhabited by palestineans, it doesnt matter what identity they had, they lived there for centuries already while those jews lived in europe for 2000 years.

They purchased like 5% of the land (also instantly evicted all arab peasants) and were gifted the rest by the colonial superpowers.

The arabs that migrated were not a big number, its a myth that palestineans are all egyptians and syrians migrants.

All in all, it was the jews who started this whole mess with the aid of the british, while palestineans are just supposed to have no say when a bunch of foreigners keep arriving with the sole intent of establishing a jewish state run by jews only.

 

[kflo]

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion.


“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion

Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

The First PM of Israel looked at the conflict with more nuance than you do. If you think Herzl would approve of the current Israeli Establishment, you are notoriously wrong. Benny Morris wrote an article recently detailing how sinister of a turn that Israel is taking here.....

you can't pull very selective quotes while accusing me of not having nuance. i get there is nuance. @avenue94 is presenting the conflict in a very one sided way. and it's just not accurate.

Revisionist ‘Scholars’ Seek to Distort and Disparage David Ben-Gurion

Israel’s first prime minister, the late David Ben-Gurion. Photo: Wikimedia Commons. By ignoring millions of declassified documents from the period …

www.algemeiner.com

ben gurion's views can't be summarized from 2 quotes taken out of context. i'm all for nuance, especially if we want to go back 100+ years. the reality is jews had a right to settle there, a right to purchase land there. that's a fact. from there, obviously there's lots of perspectives. at the end of the day, though, israel exists, and is here to stay, and that's still the starting point to what makes sense going forward. that's a certainty.

 

[cincymma79]

Jews had no right to establish a jewish ethnocracy on land already inhabited by palestineans, it doesnt matter what identity they had, they lived there for centuries already while those jews lived in europe for 2000 years.

They purchased like 5% of the land (also instantly evicted all arab peasants) and were gifted the rest by the colonial superpowers.

The arabs that migrated were not a big number, its a myth that palestineans are all egyptians and syrians migrants.

All in all, it was the jews who started this whole mess with the aid of the british, while palestineans are just supposed to have no say when a bunch of foreigners keep arriving with the sole intent of establishing a jewish state run by jews only.

We know you have a final solution for Israel but spilled milk. It’s been 80 years and your heroes have lost this war yet again. So hopefully trump just draws the lines for them and everyone can finally move on. You’re not getting rid of the Jews, even though they were chased out of all those other countries around there and that’s how they got there.

 

[Strychnine]

Let's hope that the U.S. doesn't get involved in this. The entire region would go sideways.

 

[filthybliss]

you can't pull very selective quotes while accusing me of not having nuance. i get there is nuance. @avenue94 is not presenting the conflict in a very one sided way. and it's just not accurate.

Revisionist ‘Scholars’ Seek to Distort and Disparage David Ben-Gurion

Israel’s first prime minister, the late David Ben-Gurion. Photo: Wikimedia Commons. By ignoring millions of declassified documents from the period …

www.algemeiner.com

ben gurion's views can't be summarized from 2 quotes taken out of context. i'm all for nuance, especially if we want to go back 100+ years. the reality is jews had a right to settle there, a right to purchase land there. that's a fact. from there, obviously there's lots of perspectives. at the end of the day, though, israel exists, and is here to stay, and that's still the starting point to what makes sense going forward. that's a certainty.

Ofcourse, I’m just saying both people have claims to the piece of dirt there.

You seem to only think for what is best for Israel. Egypt and Jordan aren’t going to take all of the refugees. A lot of the refugees are going to trickle into to Europe, UK and the United States. We already are handling enough with the assimilation aches of mass immigration.

And yah, I understand Israel is our ally so we helped them during this conflict. But boundaries need to be drawn at some point. Israel made their bed and they can sleep in it. It’s not our job to also inconvenience ourselves by taking in a bunch of traumatized refugees in a war that Israel stoked the flames for.

Nobody other than Israel benefits from this. The Palestinians get ethnically cleansed, the western world is cornered into accepting more refugees that don’t want to be there, and Israel is rewarded by expanding settlements in Gaza and the West Bank.

Everyone should be pushing for a pluralist state. One where Israel gets whatever it wants and the rest of the world deals with the consequences of Netanyahu’s catastrophic incompetence is bullshit.

 

[cincymma79]

Let's hope that the U.S. doesn't get involved in this. The entire region would go sideways.

Should’ve sent in every spec ops team the day after the hostages were taken. Give them 24 hours to return American hostages or kill them all

 

[kflo]

Ofcourse, I’m just saying both people have claims to the piece of dirt there.

You seem to only think for what is best for Israel. Egypt and Jordan aren’t going to take all of the refugees. A lot of the refugees are going to trickle into to Europe, UK and the United States. We already are handling enough with the assimilation aches of mass immigration.

And yah, I understand Israel is our ally so we helped them during this conflict. But boundaries need to be drawn at some point. Israel made their bed and they can sleep in it. It’s not our job to also inconvenience ourselves by taking in a bunch of traumatized refugees in a war that Israel stoked the flames for.

Nobody other than Israel benefits from this. The Palestinians get ethnically cleansed, the western world is cornered into accepting more refugees that don’t want to be there, and Israel is rewarded by expanding settlements in Gaza and the West Bank.

Everyone should be pushing for a pluralist state. One where Israel gets whatever it wants and the rest of the world deals with the consequences of Netanyahu’s catastrophic incompetence is bullshit.

and i'm just saying "claims to the land" don't really matter anymore. palestinian's can claim israeli land all they want, it doesn't matter. the only question is what is the best path to coexist with israel.

and i don't only think about what is best for israel. i actually believe i am more thoughtful about the long term interests of the palestinian people than most here, especially those who claim to side with them. ultimately, they need to accept israel's right to exist, and they need a path to no longer be refugees. they need a home, or homes. whether that's in "palestine", gaza and the WB or some other long term solution, i don't know. and know that the only time i've mentioned for egypt and / or jordan to take palestinian's it's with land as well. and ideally, the palestinian people have alternative options to leave and start their life somewhere else, should they choose to do so.

i do believe there has to be shared skin in the game from interested parties in the region and other allies to the palestinians (but again, productively, with israel, not against them). again, they've done a good job of using the palestinian struggle to keep the conflict with israel alive while not playing any productive role in securing their future.

i don't know where trump or bibi take this near term. unfortunately i'm pretty sure hamas doesn't care about threats........

 

[Captain Tenneal]

Damn, the Don really smacked him around. Never believed he could do it.

King of Jordan offers to take in thousands of Palestinian children from Gaza | Fox News Video

President Donald Trump answers reporters' questions while meeting with King Abdullah II of Jordan at the White House as the pair discuss the long-term plan for the Gaza Strip.

www.foxnews.com

Admittedly a W for Zion Don

 

[Motivated BJ Penn]

We know you have a final solution for Israel but spilled milk. It’s been 80 years and your heroes have lost this war yet again. So hopefully trump just draws the lines for them and everyone can finally move on. You’re not getting rid of the Jews, even though they were chased out of all those other countries around there and that’s how they got there.

LOL they were chased out of the middle eastern countries AFTER they did the colonization thing and ethnically cleansed 700k palestineans in the Nakba. Now I dont condone eye for an eye, but lets not assume those countries just woke up one day and realized they hated the jooos.