Shamil Musaev - best welterweight?

[bcwubi]

Curious on folks thought on Shamil Musaev. He's dominated the PFL Welterweight season thus far. His striking and power is top notch and his defensive (and offensive) wrestling is also outstanding. Neither top wrestlers like Storley or Ramazanov could impose their wrestling on him. Musaev did tire a bit in his fight tonight against Ramazanov, but Ramazanov forced a lot of wrestling, so I don't believe Musaev has cardio issues. I can't see where Belal has an advantage and I think Musaev wins easily against all the top UFC welterweights. I feel like only Shavkat would be intriguing. How do you all see Musaev?

 

[HuskySamoan]

Curious on folks thought on Shamil Musaev. He's dominated the PFL Welterweight season thus far. His striking and power is top notch and his defensive (and offensive) wrestling is also outstanding. Neither top wrestlers like Storley or Ramazanov could impose their wrestling on him. Musaev did tire a bit in his fight tonight against Ramazanov, but Ramazanov forced a lot of wrestling, so I don't believe Musaev has cardio issues. I can't see where Belal has an advantage and I think Musaev wins easily against all the top UFC welterweights. I feel like only Shavkat would be intriguing. How do you all see Musaev?

I think Murad Ramanzanov is a talented prospect with strong wrestling but just that and fairly unproven, he's got the Ruziboev win but didn't Buckley just wrestle Ruziboev? And Storley is solid but I think he'd struggle to keep a top 10 rank in the UFC, he'd expose some for having no wrestling but get whooped by a lot of others. He's a pretty one dimension, oddly sized WW who's striking is kinda slow and unathletic. Shamil has impressive striking and defensive wrestling but Storley, Murad and Uros are his only notable wins. Shamil is also kinda undersized for 170 and has fought a lot at 155, he was supposed to fight Gamrot but it never happened. While I never saw his fight with 10-4 (now 11-8) Pietrak, he went to a draw with him somewhat recently which is a huge asterisk.

I'd say if he looks sensational vs Umalatov we can talk. Umalatov has really solid striking and wrestling and is much more proven than Murad or Storley in my opinion. To be honest once Bellator and PFL merge guys like Kuramagomedov and Jason Jackson are huge tests too. I am in no way confident Shamil makes easy work or even beats Belal, Shavkat, Leon etc. But that said, UFC WW division is pretty shallow and trash still, I think Shamil, Kuramagomedov and Umalatov would all he top 10.

 

[Trupsi]

Yeah he really looked impressive last night.
He completely nullified the wrestling of Ramazanov, amazing TDD, good get-ups and even put him on his back.
His striking looks very good also, nice timing and good power.
But as mentioned before Ramazanov is one dimensional, the final vs Umalatov will be more interesting.
I gotta say I wasn't that much impressed by his performance vs Gracie...
He engages too much on his punches and I feel Shamil could easily counterpunch him.
We'll see.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

certainly looked like a world beater.

 

[Ara tech]

Shamil Musaev is to PFL what Shavkat is to the UFC.
Clearly from his recent performances, an elite fighter.

Amosov coudn't finish Storley twice, but he did.
2-0 Against Ramazanov, strong defensive wrestling from a former sanda fighter.

Special fighter for sure.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Shamil Musaev is to PFL what Shavkat is to the UFC.
Clearly from his recent performances, an elite fighter.

Amosov coudn't finish Storley twice, but he did.
2-0 Against Ramazanov, strong defensive wrestling from a former sanda fighter.

Special fighter for sure.

Yeah, I really am fascinated if he continues to look so sharp vs Umalatov. I also wouldn't mind seeing him vs a guy like Sadibou Sy who's much bigger and an elite striker with solid takedown defense. Could be a really hard stylistic type fight for Musaev.

 

[SokoudjouFanboy]

I don't speak in absolute terms about who could beat who but there's no reason to think there's any welterweight on the planet that would blow through him. He's got a very well rounded skillset and his game is capable of feeding off itself. Solid footwork, great power and a good mind for what he needs to do in order to use those tools. Great defensive wrestler, as well.

 

[SokoudjouFanboy]

I think Murad Ramanzanov is a talented prospect with strong wrestling but just that and fairly unproven, he's got the Ruziboev win but didn't Buckley just wrestle Ruziboev? And Storley is solid but I think he'd struggle to keep a top 10 rank in the UFC, he'd expose some for having no wrestling but get whooped by a lot of others. He's a pretty one dimension, oddly sized WW who's striking is kinda slow and unathletic. Shamil has impressive striking and defensive wrestling but Storley, Murad and Uros are his only notable wins. Shamil is also kinda undersized for 170 and has fought a lot at 155, he was supposed to fight Gamrot but it never happened. While I never saw his fight with 10-4 (now 11-8) Pietrak, he went to a draw with him somewhat recently which is a huge asterisk.

I'd say if he looks sensational vs Umalatov we can talk. Umalatov has really solid striking and wrestling and is much more proven than Murad or Storley in my opinion. To be honest once Bellator and PFL merge guys like Kuramagomedov and Jason Jackson are huge tests too. I am in no way confident Shamil makes easy work or even beats Belal, Shavkat, Leon etc. But that said, UFC WW division is pretty shallow and trash still, I think Shamil, Kuramagomedov and Umalatov would all he top 10.

I agree with basically everything you said but I just wanted to say I lol at the idea of Logan Storley in the UFC because of how much the brass would absolutely despise him. They would try to sabotage him every possible chance they'd get. Or vice versa - sabotage some up and coming dude by putting them in there with Storley to wall and stall for 15 minutes on the way to a split decision because Logan did no damage despite maintaining control for 95% of the fight.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I think he's definitely up there. Elite striking and takedown defence with very good offensive wrestling if he wants to use it. I think fights with him against Shavkat, Belal and Leon would all be fascinating.

I think he'll beat Umalatov handily, I'm not convinced by Umalatov as an elite fighter.

Outside the UFC I'd like to see him against Yaroslav as I don't think the Yaroslav from the Jackson fight was the real Yaroslav.

 

[Ara tech]

If you dig deep into welterweight rosters, one can make the assumption that the PFL/Bellator combined welterweight roster is more competitive than it's UFC counterpart. The very least would be to say that they are equally competitive.

Musaev is obviously the favorite against Umalatov, Ramazan Kuramagodemov and Baki would be as well very competitive fight.

The UFC failed to sign many talents worldwide, which means that in the next 10 15 years they won't have the most competitive roster, allowing others organizations to grow. All of that because the UFC got too big and arrogant.

Vartyan, Parnasse, and many russians, kyrgiz, kazak were not signed.

If Shamil Musaev beats three to five high level welterweights in a dominant way, including the undefeated Umalatov, for me I will put him P4P welterweight of the world, over Belal or Edward. Simply because he doesn't need to get into the UFC to find harsh competition.

Skillwise at least, on paper, right now, Shamil Musaev is in the top five welterweight P4P.
Performance were amazing.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

If you dig deep into welterweight rosters, one can make the assumption that the PFL/Bellator combined welterweight roster is more competitive than it's UFC counterpart. The very least would be to say that they are equally competitive.

Musaev is obviously the favorite against Umalatov, Ramazan Kuramagodemov and Baki would be as well very competitive fight.

The UFC failed to sign many talents worldwide, which means that in the next 10 15 years they won't have the most competitive roster, allowing others organizations to grow. All of that because the UFC got too big and arrogant.

Vartyan, Parnasse, and many russians, kyrgiz, kazak were not signed.

If Shamil Musaev beats three to five high level welterweights in a dominant way, including the undefeated Umalatov, for me I will put him P4P welterweight of the world, over Belal or Edward. Simply because he doesn't need to get into the UFC to find harsh competition.

Skillwise at least, on paper, right now, Shamil Musaev is in the top five welterweight P4P.
Performance were amazing.

They're more worried about having the most popular and best selling roster than the best one. If PFL has a roster full for Russians and doesn't shift tickets or get viewers they won't care.

 

[TorontoTO]

I think he's definitely up there. Elite striking and takedown defence with very good offensive wrestling if he wants to use it. I think fights with him against Shavkat, Belal and Leon would all be fascinating.

I think he'll beat Umalatov handily, I'm not convinced by Umalatov as an elite fighter.

Outside the UFC I'd like to see him against Yaroslav as I don't think the Yaroslav from the Jackson fight was the real Yaroslav.

Everytime I watch Umalatov, I like him less. Against anyone halfway decent and who isn't chinny, he just puts on an extremely boring bout.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

If you dig deep into welterweight rosters, one can make the assumption that the PFL/Bellator combined welterweight roster is more competitive than it's UFC counterpart. The very least would be to say that they are equally competitive.

Musaev is obviously the favorite against Umalatov, Ramazan Kuramagodemov and Baki would be as well very competitive fight.

The UFC failed to sign many talents worldwide, which means that in the next 10 15 years they won't have the most competitive roster, allowing others organizations to grow. All of that because the UFC got too big and arrogant.

Vartyan, Parnasse, and many russians, kyrgiz, kazak were not signed.

If Shamil Musaev beats three to five high level welterweights in a dominant way, including the undefeated Umalatov, for me I will put him P4P welterweight of the world, over Belal or Edward. Simply because he doesn't need to get into the UFC to find harsh competition.

Skillwise at least, on paper, right now, Shamil Musaev is in the top five welterweight P4P.
Performance were amazing.

There is no downside to not having the best WW, especially when most people don't know who he is.

Also, PFL is nowhere near big enough to cross promote with the UFC, so it's not like they can send Musaev over to beat up everyone in the UFC.

The UFC doesn't have them because they don't want them. It's not like they'll be shocked there are elite fighters outside the UFC 10 years from now, that's true today, and was true 10 years ago.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

There is no downside to not having the best WW, especially when most people don't know who he is.

Also, PFL is nowhere near big enough to cross promote with the UFC, so it's not like they can send Musaev over to beat up everyone in the UFC.

The UFC doesn't have them because they don't want them. It's not like they'll be shocked there are elite fighters outside the UFC 10 years from now, that's true today, and was true 10 years ago.

I am kind of surprised they didn't want him personally though. I got it when it came to Ramazanov and Ramazan but it's not like Musaev is boring.

 

[SokoudjouFanboy]

If you dig deep into welterweight rosters, one can make the assumption that the PFL/Bellator combined welterweight roster is more competitive than it's UFC counterpart. The very least would be to say that they are equally competitive.

Musaev is obviously the favorite against Umalatov, Ramazan Kuramagodemov and Baki would be as well very competitive fight.

The UFC failed to sign many talents worldwide, which means that in the next 10 15 years they won't have the most competitive roster, allowing others organizations to grow. All of that because the UFC got too big and arrogant.

Vartyan, Parnasse, and many russians, kyrgiz, kazak were not signed.

If Shamil Musaev beats three to five high level welterweights in a dominant way, including the undefeated Umalatov, for me I will put him P4P welterweight of the world, over Belal or Edward. Simply because he doesn't need to get into the UFC to find harsh competition.

Skillwise at least, on paper, right now, Shamil Musaev is in the top five welterweight P4P.
Performance were amazing.

When you combine everything that isn't the UFC vs the UFC this is true in almost every division. This 80-90% of the world's best fighters thing is absolutely false. It's like 60/40 or 50/50 IMO. PFLator has a stacked WW division, it's best IMO and ACA also has a few really good ones like Tumenov and Vagaev. Combine those 2 divisions and I think it's clearly better than the UFC

 

[HuskySamoan]

I think he's definitely up there. Elite striking and takedown defence with very good offensive wrestling if he wants to use it. I think fights with him against Shavkat, Belal and Leon would all be fascinating.

I think he'll beat Umalatov handily, I'm not convinced by Umalatov as an elite fighter.

Outside the UFC I'd like to see him against Yaroslav as I don't think the Yaroslav from the Jackson fight was the real Yaroslav.

If he can shut down the takedowns vs Umalatov and maintain his rhythm standing to outstrike him, I'll be very impressed. Umalatov is bigger, very experienced, in his prime, trains at Eagles and ATT and just the most polished and well rounded guy Shamil has ever fought. I do think Umalatov is a top 10 WW. I'd be curious to see how Shamil looks vs someone like Saidbou Sy, Shamil is more a striker and on the small side of 170lbs...that would be a tough matchup. Yaroslav, Kuramagomedov, Jason Jackson and maybe even Larkin could all be great fights too.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

If he can shut down the takedowns vs Umalatov and maintain his rhythm standing to outstrike him, I'll be very impressed. Umalatov is bigger, very experienced, in his prime, trains at Eagles and ATT and just the most polished and well rounded guy Shamil has ever fought. I do think Umalatov is a top 10 WW. I'd be curious to see how Shamil looks vs someone like Saidbou Sy, Shamil is more a striker and on the small side of 170lbs...that would be a tough matchup. Yaroslav, Kuramagomedov, Jason Jackson and maybe even Larkin could all be great fights too.

I don't think Umalatov is top ten at all tbh. The Nayib Lopez fight was gash.

 

[HuskySamoan]

When you combine everything that isn't the UFC vs the UFC this is true in almost every division. This 80-90% of the world's best fighters thing is absolutely false. It's like 60/40 or 50/50 IMO. PFLator has a stacked WW division, it's best IMO and ACA also has a few really good ones like Tumenov and Vagaev. Combine those 2 divisions and I think it's clearly better than the UFC

I'd say if you used the entire world of talent outside the UFC vs the UFC, there's more top fighters out of it. You'd just have to ride some potential on the guys outside of it, have Amru Magomedov or Ramazan Gitinov proven themselves to be elite LWs yet? No. Do I think they are/will be? Yeah. Similarly, 8 years ago or so when Shabliy and Vartanyan fight in ACA I said these are both guys the UFC has to sign, they're so good. I think the UFC compared to any 1 promotion kinda eclipses all other promotions but if you combined all the best fighters and prospects from PFL/Bellator, ACA, KSW, ONE, Rizin and you then harvested all the best from feeder organizations like Octagon, Oktagon, Ares, UAE Warriors, RCC, Jungle Fights, LFA, CFFC etc. And you distilled the best and most talented fights bother off proveness and potential and layered each division properly say 40 fighters deep prr...145, 155 and 170lbs are clearly better outside the UFC than in it. I think 125 is closer but I'd still favor 125lbs outside the UFC (UFC has done a solid job mass acquiring Flyweight talent due to their lack of value). So I'd say 125lbs to 170lbs clearly favors outside the UFC, maybe 70/30 even, definitely 60/40. MW, LHW and HW are tougher. Might favor the UFC as far the heavy divisions go honestly, but I'd have to look further into it. For as shallow as the UFC is at 205lbs and 265, there's just not much out there regardless.

Anyways I'd say UFC has around 40% of the world's top talent in MMA if you're talking like top 10 level, I think their overall standard for talent is really erratic and poor if you just go by entire divisions talent depth rather than the top end though. You can definitely argue 40-60% in either sides favor I think, depending on how you look at it.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

When you combine everything that isn't the UFC vs the UFC this is true in almost every division. This 80-90% of the world's best fighters thing is absolutely false. It's like 60/40 or 50/50 IMO. PFLator has a stacked WW division, it's best IMO and ACA also has a few really good ones like Tumenov and Vagaev. Combine those 2 divisions and I think it's clearly better than the UFC

I've got 48 out of the top 100 in the UFC personally.

22 for PFLator

12 for ACA

2 for ONE

1 for RCC

2 for KSW

1 for LFA

2 for BRAVE

4 for UAE Warriors

1 for FEN

1 for Nashe Delo

4 free agents

 

[HuskySamoan]

I agree with basically everything you said but I just wanted to say I lol at the idea of Logan Storley in the UFC because of how much the brass would absolutely despise him. They would try to sabotage him every possible chance they'd get. Or vice versa - sabotage some up and coming dude by putting them in there with Storley to wall and stall for 15 minutes on the way to a split decision because Logan did no damage despite maintaining control for 95% of the fight.

You wanna know something funny? My buddy used to train and spar with Logan a lot, same weight class and all. Apparently Logan had a reputation for being a heavy handed, athletic and aggressive dude on sparring days. Made really confused lol.