Definitive case for JBJ not being GOAT

[BowserJr]

Deflecting?


I answered your point about Choi directly and fully. You have to ignore it and rely on delusion to keep this going

Who did I miss on GSP and Hendo?Who even brought up BJ or Silva?

Lemme guess you're bringing up half ass posts in other threads cuz you keep a journal of everything I post on sherdog. Its the only way you think you have a way to debate me.

I gave you Sonnen on the basis of beating Filho in the last WEC champ fight (technically) in which case he'd count for Fedor as well. But you want to have it both ways. (Very female of you I must say). Sonnen was #4 at MW when he fought JBJ. That is utterly meaningless. He a smaller guy not even the top guy from a lower division fighting a guy with massive height and reach on him. When Lindland fought Fedor at least he was #1 MW... but let me guess you'll ignore that and ignore my other posts detailing how that was the case because its too inconvenient for your double standard ass.

I've eviscerated all of your arguments point blank, directly, thoroughly and completely. The best you have are strawman, shifting goal posts, lying, delusion, other threads, ad hominem and other weak tactics cuz you know you're wrong and dont have a leg to stand on.

The way you follow me around and feel the need to engage with me at every turn is quite adorable.

So please come back with more delusion. Please come back with more projection, more lying, strawman, weak arguments and Please come back with more crying, moaning, whining and complaining.

It is entertaining for me to continually skeet knowledge straight to your face.



I know you'll come back for more... or what you concede defeat?

 

[volcom5]

Deflecting?


I answered your point about Choi directly and fully. You have to ignore it and rely on delusion to keep this going

Who did I miss on GSP and Hendo?Who even brought up BJ or Silva?

Lemme guess you're bringing up half ass posts in other threads cuz you keep a journal of everything I post on sherdog. Its the only way you think you have a way to debate me.

I gave you Sonnen on the basis of beating Filho in the last WEC champ fight (technically) in which case he'd count for Fedor as well. But you want to have it both ways. (Very female of you I must say). Sonnen was #4 at MW when he fought JBJ. That is utterly meaningless. He a smaller guy not even the top guy from a lower division fighting a guy with massive height and reach on him. When Lindland fought Fedor at least he was #1 MW... but let me guess you'll ignore that and ignore my other posts detailing how that was the case because its too inconvenient for your double standard ass.

I've eviscerated all of your arguments point blank, directly, thoroughly and completely. The best you have are strawman, shifting goal posts, lying, delusion, other threads, ad hominem and other weak tactics cuz you know you're wrong and dont have a leg to stand on.

The way you follow me around and feel the need to engage with me at every turn is quite adorable.

So please come back with more delusion. Please come back with more projection, more lying, strawman, weak arguments and Please come back with more crying, moaning, whining and complaining.

It is entertaining for me to continually skeet knowledge straight to your face.



I know you'll come back for more... or what you concede defeat?

Im bringing up the fact that you lie ALOT and has been across the board, countless posts in other threads, you purposely left Matt Serra, Dan Hardy, and Parisyan as wins for GSP in other threads, to minimize his wins in comparison to Fedor. Shogun was at his peak vs Dan Henderson, then suddenly he wasn’t vs Jones. You’ve said these things insulting everyone, until you got checked.

I didn’t discount Lindland as a win, Im pointing out the fact you omit Sonnen for Jones as a win and consider it meaningless. Cant see the hypocrisy? Everyone else can. Lol.

Pathetic.

And again you didn’t answer.

What did Hong Man Choi accomplish in MMA?

Fedor has 15 wins over Major Org Champions?

Noguiera(2),Coleman(2), Randleman, Lindland, Sylvia, Arlovski, Mir, Jackson. Fill in the rest the for me, i cant seem to find them.

Oh I see, Sobral winning a Strikeforce LHW Championship in 08, would it be wrong to consider IFL MMA as a major org also at the time? Given Lindland kept his “#1” MW Ranking by fighting in the IFL?

 

[pclanadmin2]

Can he even dunk a basketball?

If you're under the age of 40, and you're 6 foot 4 inches or above, you should be able to dunk a basketball.

Anyway, if it wasn't for being caught cheating multiple times at his sport, to me Jon Jones would be the goat at his sport.

 

[BowserJr]

Im bringing up the fact that you lie ALOT and has been across the board, countless posts in other threads, you purposely left Matt Serra, Dan Hardy, and Parisyan as wins for GSP in other threads, to minimize his wins in comparison to Fedor. Shogun was at his peak vs Dan Henderson, then suddenly he wasn’t vs Jones. You’ve said these things insulting everyone, until you got checked.

I didn’t discount Lindland as a win, Im pointing out the fact you omit Sonnen for Jones as a win and consider it meaningless. Cant see the hypocrisy? Everyone else can. Lol.

Pathetic.

And again you didn’t answer.

What did Hong Man Choi accomplish in MMA?

Fedor has 15 wins over Major Org Champions?

Noguiera(2),Coleman(2), Randleman, Lindland, Sylvia, Arlovski, Mir, Jackson. Fill in the rest the for me, i cant seem to find them.

Oh I see, Sobral winning a Strikeforce LHW Championship in 08, would it be wrong to consider IFL MMA as a major org also at the time? Given Lindland kept his “#1” MW Ranking by fighting in the IFL?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I knew you couldnt help yourself yet again. So yet again I will make a fool of you

You're bringin up the fact that you're a moron. Thats it. I address your question not only in the OP but again afterward.

I reject the premise of your question and gave you a fully fleshed out answer which you again just ignore czu you cant bear to deal with the answer. It just an mma discussion and you take this as serious as if your pathetic life were on the line.

Here it is again for the last time you fucking imbecile. My gawd how stupid do you have to be

Again Choi was K1 champ, outweighed Fedor by 50%(123lbs), 1.5 ft reach advantage, 14, 15 inch height advantage

Verhoven is Glory champ Would have roughly a 50% (100lb) weight advantage, 6 inch height advantage, 7 inch reach advantage.

So actually Rico would have less of an advantage with Belal than Choi did with Fedor. And yet no one in their right mind would say that Belal beating Rico would not impressive as fuck and a very significant win.


But go ahead double down while you imagine me 8 inches deep. Im already rent free in your head. It would be no surprise if you fantasize about me being inside you in other ways

So lets see will you ignore the answer staring right at your slack jawed face yet again?
Yes, yes you will

And of course you cant seem to figure out the list of fighters to get the number that I posted cuz again you live in fear of a simple mma discussion. You're entire ego is on the line for you even though this is an anonymous forum. What a fucking buffoon

 

[volcom5]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I knew you couldnt help yourself yet again. So yet again I will make a fool of you

You're bringin up the fact that you're a moron. Thats it. I address your question not only in the OP but again afterward.

I reject the premise of your question and gave you a fully fleshed out answer which you again just ignore czu you cant bear to deal with the answer. It just an mma discussion and you take this as serious as if your pathetic life were on the line.

Here it is again for the last time you fucking imbecile. My gawd how stupid do you have to be







So lets see will you ignore the answer staring right at your slack jawed face yet again?
Yes, yes you will

And of course you cant seem to figure out the list of fighters to get the number that I posted cuz again you live in fear of a simple mma discussion. Your entire ego is on the line for you even though this is an anonymous forum. What a fucking buffoon

So again what did Hong Man Choi accomplish in MMA? He accomplished being born with size?

MMA, Mixed Martial Arts, what TITLE or Ranking did he deserve or win, any accomplishment in MXED MARTIAL ARTS, any relevant names he’s beaten, anyone, anything? In Mixed Martial Arts.

Minowa subbing Hong Man Choi shows how irrelevant and meaningless Fedors win over him,when it comes to being considered a great win in MIXED MARTIAL ARTS.

You’re putting more effort in insults, Lol.

Pathetic scumbag, i can only imagine the bullshit yiu spew to your family or anyone in conversations outside of this forum.

 

[Mike]

The best argument against Jones is all the cheating. If you don't care about cheating he has to be top 3 at least. Just has too deep of a resume.

 

[Mike]

“3 controversial decisions.”

You can’t have it both ways. You site GSP as the Jones antidote, but he also has a controversial decision. If he lost to Johnny as many believe he did, how would that affect his legacy? He retired after that and only came back when he saw an opportunity with a weak champion (sound familiar?) Jon otoh, didn’t retire after his first close decision. He decided to collect a few more close decisions before retiring from LHW and starting the prize fighting stage of his career. Still undefeated in the octagon.

Dirty fighter? Sure. Blame the refs and UFC culture for not enforcing the rules. Fighters now have finally caught up and many are routinely taking advantage of free eyepokes and nutshots. Jon was simply the first to routinely and transparently exploit it.

Does this demonstrate a character flaw? Yes. But being a scumbag doesn’t mean you’re not the best at what you do. It just means you’re a shitty person. And no one is disputing that Jon is a trash human being.

This is the weird argument Jones fans make that keeps them eternally arguing with people. No man, people blame cheaters for cheating. You don't get to tell people they aren't allowed to judge the biggest cheater in the history of the sport. Of course they can and will judge him lol. And no, it's not just some irrelevant morality "gotcha" to anyone but Jones superfans. You aren't supposed to cheat your ass off. If you do? Better not ever get caught or your legacy is toast.

And Jones isn't just a cheater and wasn't caught cheating only once. He cheated in and out of the cage, and more than any elite fighter we've ever seen. It's just.... super unrealistic to act like being the biggest cheater in a sports history shouldn't effect legacy at all. Plenty of athletes in other sports have had their entire legacy tossed in the garbage for less than the things Jones has done. And no I'm not including him being a shitty person in his personal life, there's no need to his cheating within the sport is egregious enough without needing to bring morality into it at all.

 

[loisestrad]

The best argument against Jones is all the cheating. If you don't care about cheating he has to be top 3 at least. Just has too deep of a resume.

It's not the best argument, it's the only argument. His personal life obviously doesn't matter when it comes to goatness in the sport, and his close wins doesn't either, as all of the other GOAT candidates has actual, clear, even humiliating losses.

Jones ducking Tom doesn't mean shit in terms of goatness either. Jones' legacy as goat was built at lhw, and the hw belt was merely the icing on the cake. Who cares about icing when the cake is that substantial?

Sure, the way it played out at hw was annoying and it took way too long for Jones to fight Stipe due to unfortunate circumstances - but the thing is, Jones was already goat at the time, and NOT fighting doesn't detract from that.

 

[Mike]

It's not the best argument, it's the only argument. His personal life obviously doesn't matter when it comes to goatness in the sport, and his close wins doesn't either, as all of the other GOAT candidates has actual, clear, even humiliating losses.

Jones ducking Tom doesn't mean shit in terms of goatness either. Jones' legacy as goat was built at lhw, and the hw belt was merely the icing on the cake. Who cares about icing when the cake is that substantial?

Sure, the way it played out at hw was annoying and it took way too long for Jones to fight Stipe due to unfortunate circumstances - but the thing is, Jones was already goat at the time, and NOT fighting doesn't detract from that.

Well goat is entirely subjective with 100 criterias so as we've seen, a number of people DO disqualify him or remove "points" for ending his career ducking and holding up a division. Something else no other goat candidate did, so people do bring it up and use it against him. Could have and probably should have just dropped the belt immediately after that farce against Stipe. That was already pushing it.

 

[orca]

Yup you have ignore what your lying eyes are telling you. You have to ignore evey counter argument and pretend those facts dont exist.

Ask anyone who doesn't stroke Jones if he looked just as good vs Santos, Smith and Reyes as he did vs DC, or Machida, or Evans. No one would say yes.

Most people had him losing to Santos and Reyes.

The best argument you have is to ignore that he has ZERO wins past 31 fights

he has like how many title wins when he was 32?
hes fighting hungry fighters but the fact that he cant be beaten still makes your argument weak
33 years of age the prime age of LHW fighters by average

why are you ignoring that? you ignore facts?

 

[orca]

Again you confuse/conflate 2 different points cuz you're either massively inept, delusional or disingenuous (if you dont k ow what that means look it up).

Fact is Jones has Zero wins after 32 fights. Fact is Jones failed multiple drug tests.

Fact is he's fought a bunch of guys after they had multiple injuries, tons of fights, camps and mileage, and who he dwarfed. The few he didn't were from the weakest LHW era of all time. The same guys that had trouble beating really old shop worn opponents and couldn't string more than 3 wins together at LHW.

There are only 4 maybe 5 guys that dont fall within those factual categories.

what your saying are not facts sir
i had already proven that the average age of LHW fighters are 33
but why are you ignoring it
can you atleast prove it?

i dont see any failed test there
mods should ban you for lying and trolling?

 

[RockyLockridge]

One thing i love about jones haters and they seem to do/say this alot

- Sonnen is a joke defense
- Jones ducked sonnen

Which one is it? A guy who doesn't deserve a title fight is rightfully snubbed the champ, and it's ducking. Then when he eventually gets strong armed into fighting him because of the ducking narrative and talk about cheal fighting jones, He takes the fight, then it's a joke defense.

 

[Pequeño Corey]

This is the weird argument Jones fans make that keeps them eternally arguing with people. No man, people blame cheaters for cheating. You don't get to tell people they aren't allowed to judge the biggest cheater in the history of the sport. Of course they can and will judge him lol. And no, it's not just some irrelevant morality "gotcha" to anyone but Jones superfans. You aren't supposed to cheat your ass off. If you do? Better not ever get caught or your legacy is toast.

And Jones isn't just a cheater and wasn't caught cheating only once. He cheated in and out of the cage, and more than any elite fighter we've ever seen. It's just.... super unrealistic to act like being the biggest cheater in a sports history shouldn't effect legacy at all. Plenty of athletes in other sports have had their entire legacy tossed in the garbage for less than the things Jones has done. And no I'm not including him being a shitty person in his personal life, there's no need to his cheating within the sport is egregious enough without needing to bring morality into it at all.

PEDs; don't care. Everyone uses them. It doesn't bother me that some people live in a fantasy world where the only fighters who use PEDs are the ones who have a failed test. If a failed tests eliminates a fighter from your personal GOAT list, that's totally fine. I just don't agree with you. Neither does the UFC HOF which acknowledges Jon's accolades, and the numerous other GOATs who acknowledge Jon's greatness.

Now, let's focus on Jon's in-ring behavior, as this really is the only other basis one could have for calling Jon a cheater.

-How many times has Jon had a point deducted for fouls?
-How many times has a Jon fight ended in DQ or NC for fouls? (Don't care about the Matt Hamill DQ. The 12-6 rule doesn't even exist anymore, and Jon was absolutely murdering him)
-Are oblique kicks illegal?

I already know the answers to these questions. So, what we're left with is a fighter that you consider to be "dirty" or "unsportsmanlike", which I honestly wouldn't argue.

Please elaborate on some of this hyperbole;

-"....or your legacy is toast". What does this even mean? Jon was stripped for a failed test and DQ'd for the Hamil fight. The rest of his record is intact and perfect. Objectively so. Even wit those blemishes, his record was still deep enough to sustain his legacy.

"He cheated in and out of the cage..." See previous. Don't care about PEDs and you haven't put forth any meaningful instances of in-cage cheating.

"Super unrealistic to act like being the biggest cheater in a sports history...." How are you quantifying this? Failed tests?

"Plenty of athletes in other sports have had their entire legacy tossed in the garbage for less than the things Jones has done." Such as?

 

[RockyLockridge]

"Plenty of athletes in other sports have had their entire legacy tossed in the garbage for less than the things Jones has done." Such as?

Tim hardaway is the one person I can think of.

 

[jjjjjjjjjjohnny]

jones will never be a goat. just like vitor, dan henderson, etc. you test positive, game over.

 

[Lil Eagle]

I always had a sense that Jon was good for like 2-3 years and then so so.

This really puts it into perspective. He is the LHW GOAT but there really is not p4p or overall GOAT

 

[BowserJr]

So again what did Hong Man Choi accomplish in MMA? He accomplished being born with size?

MMA, Mixed Martial Arts, what TITLE or Ranking did he deserve or win, any accomplishment in MXED MARTIAL ARTS, any relevant names he’s beaten, anyone, anything? In Mixed Martial Arts.

Minowa subbing Hong Man Choi shows how irrelevant and meaningless Fedors win over him,when it comes to being considered a great win in MIXED MARTIAL ARTS.

You’re putting more effort in insults, Lol.

Pathetic scumbag, i can only imagine the bullshit yiu spew to your family or anyone in conversations outside of this forum.

So again, I already addressed your question in full detail and with an analogy using current fighters.

"Pathetic scumbag" for what having a premise you dont like on an mma forum?



Why do you take this so seriously and get so emotionally attached?

Your only play now is to continually ignore, pretend things didnt happen and cry

 

[BowserJr]

he has like how many title wins when he was 32?
hes fighting hungry fighters but the fact that he cant be beaten still makes your argument weak
33 years of age the prime age of LHW fighters by average

why are you ignoring that? you ignore facts?

Age is such a confined definition for athletics, especially combat that is all but meaningless. Would you say that Cody Garbrant was in his prime from 2018-2021? Thats age 26-29.

Based on your logic the answer is yes because those are prime years for a BW.

Obvious to anyone thats not a complete moron or completely disingenuous the answer is "OF COURSE he was no longer in his prime."
LOL how deluded are you?

 

[BowserJr]

what your saying are not facts sir
i had already proven that the average age of LHW fighters are 33
but why are you ignoring it
can you atleast prove it?

i dont see any failed test there
mods should ban you for lying and trolling?

WOW you're really denying the fact that jones has ZERO wins after 32 fights ROFLMFAO!!!!

And yes he definitely failed the drug test vs Gus2. They had to move the event cuz Vegas didnt allow his failure! LMAO

So he actually has ZERO legitimate title defenses in his 2nd run cuz it was an illegitimate title. Plus he legit lost 2 of those (Santos, Reyes) . HAHAHAHAHA what a joke!

 

[Luffy]

WOW you're really denying the fact that jones has ZERO wins after 32 fights ROFLMFAO!!!!

And yes he definitely failed the drug test vs Gus2. They had to move the event cuz Vegas didnt allow his failure! LMAO

So he actually has ZERO legitimate title defenses in his 2nd run cuz it was an illegitimate title. Plus he legit lost 2 of those (Santos, Reyes) . HAHAHAHAHA what a joke!

He didn't fail it. It was later stated that what he had in his body offered no advantage, which was why it was accepted and given as an official win. Precisely because the science backed him up in that it had no advantage in the amount it was found in his body. He beat Gus 2 fair and square. His only loss was a DQ in 2009, not in an actual fight. In a fight other than a DQ, he never lost. He was never outscored ever, other than in 2009 with his opponent already barely defending himself before the vertical elbows. Even Mat Hamill said "I know for a fact I didn't win that fight and that Jon Jones didn't lose that fight. That's on paper but he definitely didn't lose that".... He's undefeated, and besides a no contest vs DC 2, he has defeated 3 generations of fighters in-between 2 world classes. He broke the record for overall belt defenses in all weight classes — 12 belt defenses. 28 wins , 0 losses, 1 NC... 2 division champion. GSP and Khabib put JJ as the #1 of all times.

Like, it doesn't matter what you wish were the true — metrics, competition, consistency, fighters like GSP, Khabib, Silva, Topuria... They all say JJ is the goat. Cry all you want, but I'm sorry you will never see him lose and I'm sorry that he retired after Stipe as the goat, breaking every record from most title defenses, youngest champion, longest reign, and 16 world championship wins... You can't twist reality, no matter how much you dislike the fact that he retired unbeaten and was recognized by most fighters ppl call GOATs, as the best to ever do it.