Social When is a sucker punch not a sucker punch?

[CubicleGangster]

I think it's a sucker. The guy he hit had his arm out and was slowly taking a step back. He was trying to create space. The weapon was for defense and to discourage a physical attack. The body language suggests he didn't want to fight.

Add in the confidence that guy landed the shots with suggests he was quite comfortable with a physical confrontation.

Everything you described means the guy knew he was in a confrontation and expected it to get physical, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to discourage a physical attack by brandishing a weapon.
Not a sucker punch.

 

[dirtypablo]

You can fuck off with this civilized shit, I don't fight people in the street so none of this applies to me.

According to you, anyone who throws first is automatically a sucker puncher. Do I have to state my intent to fight first before I throw a punch? Maybe shout out "I am going to fight you!" before I punch just to be sure. Or do I have to wait for the person to put their fists up?
Do you not see how ridiculous that is?




This post proves you are not capable of discussion. Concession accepted.

It's not ridiculous at all. The issue is that what crosses the line for where a verbal dispute becomes a physical one is different for different people. You may think they said x, so now we're fighting, when to that person they had no idea that it was actually a fight.

 

[CubicleGangster]

I can recall two situations when I was in busy nightclubs where some dude was suddenly in my face and raging and i was confronted with his anger without knowing wtf was going on.

One time one of my friends, nearby said the guy was muttering about me bumping him and spilling his drink, in what was a packed club.

When faced with that, and seeing how he was on the verge of potentially swinging at mei squared up, returned eye contact and got physically aggressive in my demeanor as well, not looking to fight but to show him I was ready and was not backing down.

Is your position I must back down or I deserve any punch I get and if he immediately just threw a punch before I realized what was up, it is not a sucker punch?

Is your view that, that same guy goes to clubs and pretty much gets in fights each weekend with guys he steps to, for whatever reason he thinks they slighted him, and he is always just throwing that first punch at anyone who squares back up to him, ...that it is not a sucker punch, ever?

You have completely misconstrued my view and are all over the place. In your situation, had you hit him first it would not be a sucker punch. Had he hit you before you even knew what was going on, it would be a sucker punch since you were not even aware of the situation. Now according to your own words, you were making eye contact and squared up so not sure how throwing a punch at that point would be a sucker punch. Not sure what is so hard to follow here.

Dude hits you out of nowhere? Sucker Punch. Dude gets in your face starting a fight and you hit him because you see he is ready to swing on you? Not a sucker punch. Dude gets in your face and you choose to stand your ground and square up to defend yourself? Not a sucker punch. You choose to walk away and the dude follows you and hits you from behind? Sucker punch (though you shouldn't have turned your back on an aggressive dumb shit)

I never said people can not walk away from a situation, no idea where you got that idea from. I, myself, always choose to walk away. Fighting in public is dumb.

 

[CubicleGangster]

It's not ridiculous at all. The issue is that what crosses the line for where a verbal dispute becomes a physical one is different for different people. You may think they said x, so now we're fighting, when to that person they had no idea that it was actually a fight.

Yeah kind of the point of the thread is what exactly is the line.
You are making it seem that anyone who takes it from verbal to physical is automatically a sucker puncher. I do not see it to be so absolute.

 

[2DUM2TAP]

Everything you described means the guy knew he was in a confrontation and expected it to get physical, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to discourage a physical attack by brandishing a weapon.
Not a sucker punch.

I completely disagree. I'm used to asking someone if they wanna go before throwing mitts.....

 

[CubicleGangster]

I completely disagree. I'm used to asking someone if they wanna go before throwing mitts.....

So unless there is a gentleman's agreement, it is a sucker punch?

I really do not agree with that at all, it is not an absolute thing.

 

[2DUM2TAP]

So unless there is a gentleman's agreement, it is a sucker punch?

I really do not agree with that at all, it is not an absolute thing.

Maybe... Maybe that's just my code. Then again most of my fights have been on skates where its customary to square up.
But if you can tell someone doesn't want none, by body language or them trying to discourage a fight with a weapon then I suggest walking away.

 

[dirtypablo]

Yeah kind of the point of the thread is what exactly is the line.
You are making it seem that anyone who takes it from verbal to physical is automatically a sucker puncher. I do not see it to be so absolute.

If you take to physical without the other person knowing, yes it's a sucker punch. The issue is that a lot of morons think their view of the line is the correct one, and if the other person didn't know that, that's their problem.

Like I said, if the other person didn't know they were in a physical fight, it's a sucker punch. If it's not a sucker punch, why not step back, put you hands up, and say let's do this? Because you're trying to hit them before they're ready. I don't understand how people don't get this.

 

[CubicleGangster]

Maybe... Maybe that's just my code. Then again most of my fights have been on skates where its customary to square up.
But if you can tell someone doesn't want none, by body language or them trying to discourage a fight with a weapon then I suggest walking away.

I would suggest the same, no point in getting in street fights. But code doesn't mean shit when it comes to this. Someone is acting aggressive and threatening, then they come marching towards you I do not think you need to announce your intent to fight at that point. And punching them in that situation isn't a sucker punch. Holding a weapon and threatening to knee cap someone doesn't quite fall into "I do not want to fight" to me.

 

[MikeMcMann]

By your logic this is NOT a Sucker Punch because she was arguing in his face and she put a hand up like she was going to eye poke him. She should have been ready to defend herself.

It’s not. When you get in peoples face you should expect for bad things to happen. Just because some people are dumb as hell and don’t expect it doesn’t mean it’s a sucker punch.

It should not even be a question that this is a sucker punch.

As i said upthread people are trying to say 'if the other person is obnoxious, is arguing back, is not backing away, is a bitch or an asshole, ..then when you punch them it is deserved and thus not a sucker punch.

That is wrong.

It can be justified or deserved but STILL be a sucker punch

Guys are creating the situation where any bully can aggressively confront anyone and just the act of standing up to them means they can haul off and punch you in the face without you even knowing you were in a fight (see my bar example above) and that is just silly.

In this instance the girl might well be the biggest bitch but she was not expecting a physical fight and he snuck in a punch before she could realize it was coming or have time to react. If he said to her after 'haha sucker you did not see that coming, did ya?' it would be perfectly appropriate for him to say

Again, arguing she was stupid or cunty is a way to say 'she deserved a sucker punch' but not that it was NOT a sucker punch.

 

[CubicleGangster]

If you take to physical without the other person knowing, yes it's a sucker punch. The issue is that a lot of morons think their view of the line is the correct one, and if the other person didn't know that, that's their problem.

Like I said, if the other person didn't know they were in a physical fight, it's a sucker punch. If it's not a sucker punch, why not step back, put you hands up, and say let's do this? Because you're trying to hit them before they're ready. I don't understand how people don't get this.

Except it still isn't absolute like that. Sometimes you do not have time to assess whether they are gonna hit you are not and whether they are ready to escalate things to a physical level. Someone tries to get in your face in an aggressive manner, you may not have the time to think whether they are gonna hit you first and you sure as shit don't have time to say "I'm gonna fight you" before you have to act.

 

[dirtypablo]

Except it still isn't absolute like that. Sometimes you do not have time to assess whether they are gonna hit you are not and whether they are ready to escalate things to a physical level. Someone tries to get in your face in an aggressive manner, you may not have the time to think whether they are gonna hit you first and you sure as shit don't have time to say "I'm gonna fight you" before you have to act.

Its absolute to me. If the person who got punched didn't know punches were being thrown, I'll always consider it a sucker punch. The fact that some people think the person should have known is irrelevant.

 

[MikeMcMann]

You can fuck off with this civilized shit, I don't fight people in the street so none of this applies to me.

According to you, anyone who throws first is automatically a sucker puncher. Do I have to state my intent to fight first before I throw a punch? Maybe shout out "I am going to fight you!" before I punch just to be sure. Or do I have to wait for the person to put their fists up?
Do you not see how ridiculous that is?




This post proves you are not capable of discussion. Concession accepted.

It is not the 'throwing first' that makes it a sucker punch.

Even in a sanctioned MMA fight someone always has to throw first. So lets get rid of that silly definition.

it is the act of throwing a punch at someone before its clear this has escalated to a physical confrontation.

And as I keep saying some sucker punches may be justifiable while others are not. But justifiable does not mean its NOT a sucker punch.

Arguing with a cashier at Walmart who is dumb and step way to close into your space and is in your face = sucker punch and not justifiable if you just haul off and punch her for it.

If 2 guys follow you into the parking lot of a bar after you left after a confrontation inside, ...and you strike one before you think the two of them might jump you that = a sucker punch that is justified as they are creating a very dangerous situation for you confronting you 2 on 1. Even if they only intended to apologize.

But both are sucker punches.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Everything you described means the guy knew he was in a confrontation and expected it to get physical, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to discourage a physical attack by brandishing a weapon.
Not a sucker punch.

all you are saying is any person, any bully, any idiot, who steps up into anyone's face and is threatening is justified in hauling off and punching them before they even think this has escalated to a fight, if they dare to hold their ground and not just go submissive.

If you disagree define a time, ...tell us how that is not the case when you have a raging bully type, getting in someone face at random grocery store, when the other person does not even know what is going on but does not back down from bully and stands face to face holding his ground as he tries to talk things out, and gets clocked for it, before knowing the other guy was even in physical fight mode?

 

[minute bull]

Guys are creating the situation where any bully can aggressively confront anyone and just the act of standing up to them means they can haul off and punch you in the face without you even knowing you were in a fight (see my bar example above) and that is just silly.

Your notion of initiative -- or maybe it's permission -- is what's silly a bit precious. We're not talking about what's right or wrong, fair and honorable, expected vs unexpected -- even though these concepts do be at play.

However, a sucker punch is a SIMPLIFIED concept, and which isn't solely defined by whether the person expects to be punched. (Correct me if I'm wrong in assuming the bold part is what you're saying.)

Here's what we both might agree is a justified[1] sucker[2] punch:



You might argue that all the bullying leading up to actual sucker punch @:30 also qualifies, but you can see there's a difference between the two.

 

[pakimahi]

When it's self defence to a ligitimate threat of violence , it's not a sucker punch.

If someone not looking/avoiding a fight, keeps getting bullied. Both instances are A ok for the weaker side to to first

 

[MikeMcMann]

You have completely misconstrued my view and are all over the place. In your situation, had you hit him first it would not be a sucker punch. Had he hit you before you even knew what was going on, it would be a sucker punch since you were not even aware of the situation. Now according to your own words, you were making eye contact and squared up so not sure how throwing a punch at that point would be a sucker punch. Not sure what is so hard to follow here.

Dude hits you out of nowhere? Sucker Punch. Dude gets in your face starting a fight and you hit him because you see he is ready to swing on you? Not a sucker punch. Dude gets in your face and you choose to stand your ground and square up to defend yourself? Not a sucker punch. You choose to walk away and the dude follows you and hits you from behind? Sucker punch (though you shouldn't have turned your back on an aggressive dumb shit)

I never said people can not walk away from a situation, no idea where you got that idea from. I, myself, always choose to walk away. Fighting in public is dumb.

No. You are the one struggling to comprehend things properly.

it is entirely possible to be confronted by someone and have no clue why they are mad and being aggressive. Maybe they think you stepped on their toe or jostled them causing them to spill their drink. Maybe you did accidently or maybe they thought it was you but were wrong.

REGARDLESS you are now faced with a guy in a rage facing you and being aggressive.

You are IN NO WAY in fight mode. You have no clue why this guy is raging and you want to find out to de-escalate. But at the SAME TIME, you can see this guy is raging and know things could escalate if you don't get a handle on it. You are not a BITCH. You know that the best way to de-escalate things like this is often to not show this person weakness or fear. So you square up and look him in the eyes and aggressively tell him to 'RELAX'.

I've been in that exact situation more than once in bars and backed the other guy down. No punches thrown.

You are saying that the angry guy, the second I square up to him and don't just cower like a bitch, is justified in hauling off and punching me. I squared up so its on. Back down, tuck tail or you can never be sucker punched. That by you is just silly as it means either be bitch and back down (not the best way to avoid all fights) or if you get punched in the face you deserved it....

...Now according to your own words, you were making eye contact and squared up so not sure how throwing a punch at that point would be a sucker punch. Not sure what is so hard to follow here...

 

[Bacco]

If you take to physical without the other person knowing, yes it's a sucker punch. The issue is that a lot of morons think their view of the line is the correct one, and if the other person didn't know that, that's their problem.

Like I said, if the other person didn't know they were in a physical fight, it's a sucker punch. If it's not a sucker punch, why not step back, put you hands up, and say let's do this? Because you're trying to hit them before they're ready. I don't understand how people don't get this.

 

[MikeMcMann]

nnn

Your notion of initiative -- or maybe it's permission -- is what's silly a bit precious. We're not talking about what's right or wrong, fair and honorable, expected vs unexpected -- even though these concepts do be at play.

However, a sucker punch is a SIMPLIFIED concept, and which isn't solely defined by whether the person expects to be punched. (Correct me if I'm wrong in assuming the bold part is what you're saying.)

Here's what we both might agree is a justified[1] sucker[2] punch:



You might argue that all the bullying leading up to actual sucker punch @:30 also qualifies, but you can see there's a difference between the two.

The 'sucker' in sucker punch, comes from the guy not KNOWING it was coming. He got suckered. He did not see it coming.


'HAHA sucker, bet you did not see that coming, did you'?

Its an extension of the old prior gun fight code, that has flowed into a fist fight.

Could you just pull out your gun and shoot someone in the old west, who you thought might be a threat, and might kill you if you fought him fairly, in a draw down situation. Sure. It might even be smart as you might know he is the far better gunslinger and will kill you in a 'fair fight'.

But it is still a sucker shot, to draw down and shoot him before he realizes it is a gun fight. This answer is NOT tied to who was right or wrong in whatever the dispute was.

In a fair gun fight, you don't just shoot first over the perceived offense in the bar. You tell the guy to step outside giving fair warning.

And we can agree to disagree. You can say 'no, you shoot first at any perceived slight, if you think you might die if you don't'. He spills your drink or jostles you and you think this might end up in shots fired, just pull your gun and shoot first.

Some guys does not even know he stepped on your toe or jostled your drink, just punch him in the face first if he dares to square up when you confront him.

If that is your view of the world and things we can agree to disagree as that is always a sucker punch to me.

 

[MikeMcMann]

When it's self defence to a ligitimate threat of violence , it's not a sucker punch.

If someone not looking/avoiding a fight, keeps getting bullied. Both instances are A ok for the weaker side to to first

I would change it slightly and call it a 'justified sucker punch' .