International Trump says Putin is 'doing what anyone else would do' with recent attacks on Ukraine

[nixkid]

It's factually accurate. If Russia was advancing it's sphere of military influence towards America, America would do something about it.

Cuban missile crisis anyone?

They don't care about NATO. Finland joined NATO and more than doubled the NATO border with Russia.

Not only did Russia do nothing about it, they actually moved troops from the Finnish border to send to Ukraine. They are not worried about a NATO invasion.

They are worried that NATO surrounding them will prevent their expansionist ambitions however. Can't invade your neighbors if they are in NATO.

 

[SandisLL]

Ukraine was not applying to or joining NATO. It is completely Russian fan fiction.

They were making reforms to perhaps eventually be eligible to start using the Euro.

So even if the expert you're appealing to is completely correct, it does not match the reality of events.

Euro is out of question. Always was.
In January 2022 th Ukraine didn't had granted even EU candidate status...nor had been provided roadmap or invited to apply for NATO membership nor had active application.

About EUR adoption it is even more difficult than to be full EU member.... Ukr didn't had met criteria even to get as candidate.
Albania is EU candidate 10 years....in order to get what stuff candidate status means in real life.

Basically candidate status isn't binding contract. You get flowcharts and reccomendations what to do before apply .

.If you don't do...0 sanctions or fines etc...
If you do, then get next flowcharts... approx like this.
This isn't loans or grants with clauses etc...

EUR adoption mainly is ECB decision if country - full member meets actual criteria...

I even a bit scared that they reduced demands BTW.

I might want to see how Ukr might had met early 2000 ies criteria:
State treasury warranted public debt 40% or lesser, reccomended yearly budget deficite
2% ...and inflation % and other things.

Ukr there in 2021 th was not even close to this...

 

[SandisLL]

They don't care about NATO. Finland joined NATO and more than doubled the NATO border with Russia.

Not only did Russia do nothing about it, they actually moved troops from the Finnish border to send to Ukraine. They are not worried about a NATO invasion.

They are worried that NATO surrounding them will prevent their expansionist ambitions however. Can't invade your neighbors if they are in NATO.

Especially funny that Finland in 2022 th had potential to purchase a lot more weapons than Ukraine. Their GDP NET was more than Ukr had 2021 th...


They also frequently are depleting SAM batteries assets in Kaliningrad, Leningrad and Murmansk oblastjs in order to relocate them to Donabas area....also pro units partially, stuff like special tasks forces plus pro marines and pro paratroopers.

They most likely even today does have nukes in Leningrad area and Kalingrad area....mainly nuclear armed torpedoes... they had built nice penals and bunkers in 1960 ies
..

 

[Crazy Source]

But Russia was reacting to NATO movement towards their borders.

"Robert M Gates, who served as secretary of defense in the administrations of both George W Bush and Barack Obama, stated his belief that “the relationship with Russia had been badly mismanaged after [George HW] Bush left office in 1993”. Among other missteps, “US agreements with the Romanian and Bulgarian governments to rotate troops through bases in those countries was a needless provocation.” In an implicit rebuke to the younger Bush, Gates asserted that “trying to bring Georgia and Ukraine into Nato was truly overreaching”. That move, he contended, was a case of “recklessly ignoring what the Russians considered their own vital national interests”."


You can't punch someone then complain they got pissed off about it. Americas own experts had warned about this for decades.

Russia already has NATO nations bordering them. Why is Ukraine not allowed to join? And doesn't the fact that Russia invaded them highlight the fact that Ukraine would benefit from being a NATO country? Ukraine had already gave up nuclear weapons. They were no threat to Russia, UNLESS Russia wanted to invade them, which is exactly what happened. Stop apologizing for a hostile nation. Nobody with a brain is buying it.

 

[Crazy Source]

Ukraine was not applying to or joining NATO. It is completely Russian fan fiction.

They were making reforms to perhaps eventually be eligible to start using the Euro.

So even if the expert you're appealing to is completely correct, it does not match the reality of events.

Huh, I was under the impression Ukraine had expressed that they wanted NATO membership. I guess I am not immune to Russian propaganda.

 

[Rational Poster]

Huh, I was under the impression Ukraine had expressed that they wanted NATO membership. I guess I am not immune to Russian propaganda.

No, Ukraine never entered the candidacy or application phase to join either NATO or EU.

They were making economic reforms to perhaps one day be considered for EU ascendancy, but even today it would be decades away or just impossible for them to join.

It is just Russian fan fiction. There were some talks about it like 20 years ago at this point that also never materialized even into candidacy/application phase. They were flat out rejected by members of NATO, Germany, France, etc.

 

[nixkid]

Huh, I was under the impression Ukraine had expressed that they wanted NATO membership. I guess I am not immune to Russian propaganda.

That was only after Russia took Crimea in 2014. Prior to 2014, they had expressed no interest in joining NATO. They wanted to join the EU. The EU does not provide any military guarantees and has no military. It's mainly an economic union (for now).

Russia didn't like losing Ukraine as a vassal state and didn't want Western oil companies developing Ukrainian oil and gas in the black sea (competing with Russian exports to Europe) so Putin summoned the Ukrainian president (who was a Russian puppet) to Moscow and told him to kill the EU deal. He followed orders.

Which is how this happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

 

[Phlog]

Russia already has NATO nations bordering them. Why is Ukraine not allowed to join? And doesn't the fact that Russia invaded them highlight the fact that Ukraine would benefit from being a NATO country? Ukraine had already gave up nuclear weapons. They were no threat to Russia, UNLESS Russia wanted to invade them, which is exactly what happened. Stop apologizing for a hostile nation. Nobody with a brain is buying it.

Adding Ukraine to NATO would more than double the NATO Russia border.

Yes Russia has lots of other reasons for invading Ukraine. It's not some sort of binary, goodies and baddies kid stuff.

I'm not apologising for anyone.

 

[Crazy Source]

Adding Ukraine to NATO would more than double the NATO Russia border.

Yes Russia has lots of other reasons for invading Ukraine. It's not some sort of binary, goodies and baddies kid stuff.

I'm not apologising for anyone.

You can't spin this "both sides are to blame" bullshit. Russia invaded a sovereign nation. FULL STOP.

 

[Rational Poster]

Adding Ukraine to NATO would more than double the NATO Russia border.

Yes Russia has lots of other reasons for invading Ukraine. It's not some sort of binary, goodies and baddies kid stuff.

I'm not apologising for anyone.

NATO already controls both sides of the Suwalki gap, which is the most direct route to Moscow through the Baltic states and Belarus.

Russia has been removing troops from Kaliningrad, which protects the gap. They are not actually worried about being invaded by NATO.

 

[Phlog]

You can't spin this "both sides are to blame" bullshit. Russia invaded a sovereign nation. FULL STOP.

I'm not spinning anything. We absolutely let down Ukraine and let them be a battleground.

But I'm not going to argue further with someone who believes events in world politics are either right or wrong, that state actors can be characterised as goodies and baddies and unironically puts 3 full stops at the end of their post.

 

[Phlog]

NATO already controls both sides of the Suwalki gap, which is the most direct route to Moscow through the Baltic states and Belarus.

Russia has been removing troops from Kaliningrad, which protects the gap. They are not actually worried about being invaded by NATO.

It's less a fear of being invaded rather a fear of the states freedom to act being curtailed and strategically beneficial positions for potential future conflicts being arranged.

It's somewhat more complicated than just a threat of imminent land invasion.

 

[Crazy Source]

I'm not spinning anything. We absolutely let down Ukraine and let them be a battleground.

But I'm not going to argue further with someone who believes events in world politics are either right or wrong, that state actors can be characterised as goodies and baddies and unironically puts 3 full stops at the end of their post.

I agree arguing at this point is futile. Nobody is changing their mind. I think there is a clear bad actor here, and that is the country that invaded. That seems like an obvious choice to me, but to each their own.

 

[SandisLL]

That was only after Russia took Crimea in 2014. Prior to 2014, they had expressed no interest in joining NATO. They wanted to join the EU. The EU does not provide any military guarantees and has no military. It's mainly an economic union (for now).

Russia didn't like losing Ukraine as a vassal state and didn't want Western oil companies developing Ukrainian oil and gas in the black sea (competing with Russian exports to Europe) so Putin summoned the Ukrainian president (who was a Russian puppet) to Moscow and told him to kill the EU deal. He followed orders.

Which is how this happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

It is even more ridiculous because they wanted to get some kind of trade deal with EU, nothing ( then ) more.
U.S 2014- till today appeared pro Kremlin weaklings so have no clue why they had dreamed to join pro Kremlin org in NATO...later dropped this dream.
For West they are Grey zone with some batch with cavemans and always will be like this.

 

[Andy Capp]

But Russia was reacting to NATO movement towards their borders.

"Robert M Gates, who served as secretary of defense in the administrations of both George W Bush and Barack Obama, stated his belief that “the relationship with Russia had been badly mismanaged after [George HW] Bush left office in 1993”. Among other missteps, “US agreements with the Romanian and Bulgarian governments to rotate troops through bases in those countries was a needless provocation.” In an implicit rebuke to the younger Bush, Gates asserted that “trying to bring Georgia and Ukraine into Nato was truly overreaching”. That move, he contended, was a case of “recklessly ignoring what the Russians considered their own vital national interests”."


You can't punch someone then complain they got pissed off about it. Americas own experts had warned about this for decades.

Let's take this as a given for a moment for the sake of argument. Do you think the US president should be saying anything even close to that unless he is intentionally sucking up to Russia and enabling them to push the narrative that the attack on Ukraine is justified?

 

[USA!USA!]

It's less a fear of being invaded rather a fear of the states freedom to act being curtailed and strategically beneficial positions for potential future conflicts being arranged.

It's somewhat more complicated than just a threat of imminent land invasion.

That is too damn bad. Life isn't fair. They should learn to deal with it and make more progress economically and politically versus militarily. As long as they are not being invaded, I don't give a damn about their feelings.

Maybe if they weren't so hostile to their neighbors, they wouldn't all be running to NATO to begin with.

 

[tonil]

NATO already controls both sides of the Suwalki gap, which is the most direct route to Moscow through the Baltic states and Belarus.

Russia has been removing troops from Kaliningrad, which protects the gap. They are not actually worried about being invaded by NATO.

so where is the logic and reason for Russian army to go to Ukraine if it wasnt because of Ukraine NATO aspirations ?

 

[Andy Capp]

You again are pushing Lavrov office fairy tales for random noobs ....cheap lying.

Putin personally had agreed with NATO so called expansion...even with EU expansion.
He had signed papers boy. These papers are available to read for free...for everyone who isn't an idiot and blind ....

Kid, there isn't russian forum ....for locals who are lazy and maybe even blind.

You don't talk here just with random lazy dreamers....this isn't local forum for Russian speakers in Russia or lazy rednecks.

Perhaps he is misled by the sources he uses for news but he's a decent guy and there's no need for personal attacks in response to a post of his that has none.

 

[Andy Capp]

so where is the logic and reason for Russian army to go to Ukraine if it wasnt because of Ukraine NATO aspirations ?

Is this a serious question? Really?

 

[Rational Poster]

so where is the logic and reason for Russian army to go to Ukraine if it wasnt because of Ukraine NATO aspirations ?

Russian leadership thinks that Ukraine isn't a real country and it should just be part of Russia.

They've been pretty explicit about this.