BJJ is bjj the same thing as kosen judo

[Rod1]

No, Kosen allows wins from throws and pins, so Kosen guys can still throw and they will explode when their guard is passed.

Kosen Judo rules is what i wish BJJ or Judo was. If Kosen were to hit mainstream i would abandon kodokan judo or BJJ for good (well maybe not, but i would make it my sport).

 

[Ryo]

Which ones? Kosen included leg locks.

No it didnt. Same submissions allowed in Kodokan Judo, but there were no time limits on the ground or penaltys for unskillful entry into Newaza (pulling guard/dragging to the mat).

 

[joe447]

i find this topic how shall i say...interesting..

 

[YeahBee]

But now bjj people are now learning judo, alot of the pages were people insulting judo as a joke compare to bjj.

yeah it is a nice develoment

we probably had a few f12 guys that did crosstrain way way when to but now everybody seems to be doing it

 

[nefti]

to online judokas? yes


To accomplished judokas that know both bjj and Judo? NO. Such as Macro Barboso who was on the national judo team in brasil and trained in japan or Leando Leite who was Pan Am judo champion. But for your run of the mill online wapanese judoka... Yes they will shout to the moon that it's the same thing.

 

[Darkslide632]

Judo is Judo. Kosen is just a misunderstood term. What you are looking at when you watch Kosen Judo is what Judo newaza looks like when people are not so focused on competition that they ignore it. The problem is simply that the way to make a name for yourself in Judo is to win at competitions, and you don't produce a ton of champions by spending a huge amount of time practicing newaza when shiai devotes so little time to it.

At this point in America, people are so competition based that there are few people who are well versed enough in newaza to teach it the way it was intended, and those who ARE are not as well known as the very visible competition schools.

Kosen is not some super secret style of Judo. A friend of mine who just received his first stripe on his black belt in BJJ tells people when I come to visit their club that I practice "real" Judo, and that's fairly accurate. The BJJ definitely still have an advantage on the ground because I still only spend ~50% of my time practicing newaza, but the basic techniques are virtually all the same. The biggest difference in the ground game at this point is the various "advanced guards" that BJJ has brought about.

Are they the same? Many of the techniques are the same. But the technique is not what defines the style, but rather the underlying principles. The same goes for similarities between wrestling take downs and Judo throws, or catch wrestling submissions vs BJJ submissions.

 

[Kid Sampson]

to online judokas? yes


To accomplished judokas that know both bjj and Judo? NO. Such as Macro Barboso who was on the national judo team in brasil and trained in japan or Leando Leite who was Pan Am judo champion. But for your run of the mill online wapanese judoka... Yes they will shout to the moon that it's the same thing.

While i'm not accomplished, I do train in both Judo and BJJ. I think Flavio Canto's perspective is the most accurate. He views them as the same thing with different rules, and obvioulsy the rules dictate the sport.

 

[ShindoNinja]

No it didnt. Same submissions allowed in Kodokan Judo, but there were no time limits on the ground or penaltys for unskillful entry into Newaza (pulling guard/dragging to the mat).

Are you sure that the Kodokan did not recognize leglocks? Really I am asking, I am not claining to know. I have Syd Hoare's(7th Dan) book A to Z of Judo and it contains leg locks.
Are you telling me BJJ and Sambo-ist both came up with their leglocks independently?
Contents

Foreword ............................ III
Introduction ........................ V
The Sources ......................... VII
The Essence of Judo ................. IX
Nage-waza (Throws) .................. 1
Osaekomi-waza (Hold Downs) .......... 93
Ude-kansetsu-waza (Armlocks) ........ 111
Ashi-kansetsu-waza (Leglocks) ....... 137
Kubi-kansetsu-waza (Spinelocks) ..... 145
Kotewaza (Wrist-Locks) .............. 150
Shime-waza (Strangles) .............. 153
The Official Technique List of the
International Judo Federation ....... 189
Refereeing Terminology .............. 191
Japanese Pronunciation .............. 191
Sources ............................. 192

 

[Ryo]

Judo didnt get sparring from Fusen Ryu, it did it before the Fusen Ryu matches. Judo was the 1st large scale MA to have randori be a constant part of training

I've never believed that. It just goes against all the laws of common sense. I doesnt take a genious to figure out that the best way to learn to fight is to practice your technique in a situations that resembles a real fight with resistance.

Samurai were soldiers and soldiers needed to be able to use what they trained, otherwise its pointless. The fact that they were pretty good at what they did leads me to believe that they must have sparred quite often. Theres just no other way around it.

 

[BudoNoah]

Are you sure that the Kodokan did not recognize leglocks? Really I am asking, I am not claining to know. I have Syd Hoare's(7th Dan) book A to Z of Judo and it contains leg locks.

Contents

Foreword ............................ III
Introduction ........................ V
The Sources ......................... VII
The Essence of Judo ................. IX
Nage-waza (Throws) .................. 1
Osaekomi-waza (Hold Downs) .......... 93
Ude-kansetsu-waza (Armlocks) ........ 111
Ashi-kansetsu-waza (Leglocks) ....... 137
Kubi-kansetsu-waza (Spinelocks) ..... 145
Kotewaza (Wrist-Locks) .............. 150
Shime-waza (Strangles) .............. 153
The Official Technique List of the
International Judo Federation ....... 189
Refereeing Terminology .............. 191
Japanese Pronunciation .............. 191
Sources ............................. 192

I have a book on Judo newaza from the mid-50's that also includes leglocks. I can't remember the name or author off the top of my head, though.

 

[Ryo]

Are you sure that the Kodokan did not recognize leglocks? Really I am asking, I am not claining to know. I have Syd Hoare's(7th Dan) book A to Z of Judo and it contains leg locks.

Contents

Foreword ............................ III
Introduction ........................ V
The Sources ......................... VII
The Essence of Judo ................. IX
Nage-waza (Throws) .................. 1
Osaekomi-waza (Hold Downs) .......... 93
Ude-kansetsu-waza (Armlocks) ........ 111
Ashi-kansetsu-waza (Leglocks) ....... 137
Kubi-kansetsu-waza (Spinelocks) ..... 145
Kotewaza (Wrist-Locks) .............. 150
Shime-waza (Strangles) .............. 153
The Official Technique List of the
International Judo Federation ....... 189
Refereeing Terminology .............. 191
Japanese Pronunciation .............. 191
Sources ............................. 192

That is not what I said. The fact that Kodokan Judo contains leglocks (which ofcourse is true) does not mean they are used in competition or taught in most dojos.

Judo has not allowed leglocks in competition for over a century now.

Kosen Judo rules did not allow leglocks either.

 

[DSGhST07]

I was thinking about opening a school when I'm black belt in both judo & bjj and call it Kosen Judo(TM!). It would be a great market scheme, until someone from Japan comes down and beats me down or shoots poison darts in my neck.

 

[Rod1]

I've never believed that. It just goes against all the laws of common sense. I doesnt take a genious to figure out that the best way to learn to fight is to practice your technique in a situations that resembles a real fight with resistance.

Samurai were soldiers and soldiers needed to be able to use what they trained, otherwise its pointless. The fact that they were pretty good at what they did leads me to believe that they must have sparred quite often. Theres just no other way around it.

Yes, they did.

But safe sparring was not really widespread until Judo, the reason why jujutsukas tended to be seen as savage is because they would literally go and pick fights and mug peoples to test the techniques in a "life or death" situation.

Judo was the transition from a true martial art to a martial way and sport.

 

[Rod1]

I have a book on Judo newaza from the mid-50's that also includes leglocks. I can't remember the name or author off the top of my head, though.

GJJ containts striking, can i punch in competition?

Same principle

 

[Drew Foster]

Yes, they did.

But safe sparring was not really widespread until Judo, the reason why jujutsukas tended to be seen as savage is because they would literally go and pick fights and mug peoples to test the techniques in a "life or death" situation.

Judo was the transition from a true martial art to a martial way and sport.

Yep. Jujutsu Ryu, or families (I say families because it was very hard if not impossible to go to a and be allowed to train there) started to be seen as unnecessary and thuggish relics of a past Japan wanted to leave behind.

Kano took Kito-Ryu Jujutsu (maybe others, I don't know) and made the techniques acceptable for the public, by allowing everyone to train safely, at full speeds, as well as focusing on human growth. That's a big part of the genius of what he did.

 

[ShindoNinja]

That is not what I said. The fact that Kodokan Judo contains leglocks (which ofcourse is true) does not mean they are used in competition or taught in most dojos.

Judo has not allowed leglocks in competition for over a century now.

Kosen Judo rules did not allow leglocks either.

Ok, makes sense. I meant Judo as an art contained leg locks, they were not new to BJJ, I know what you are saying now. We started talking about the roots of BJJ, my only point was that Judo did contain leg locks, I thought Kosen did too. I think Wiki pedia says it does, I know that is not reliable.

 

[Ryo]

Yes, they did.

But safe sparring was not really widespread until Judo, the reason why jujutsukas tended to be seen as savage is because they would literally go and pick fights and mug peoples to test the techniques in a "life or death" situation.

Judo was the transition from a true martial art to a martial way and sport.

I dont believe that either. Some probably did, but they had to have a way to realistically train their techniques which did not involve breaking the law. Were talking a mojority here.

Think about it. The police, the military ect.. all trained in these Koryu Arts. If they trained nothing but Kata and no actual resistance that would make for a pretty shitty force right there when they actually had to use it.

 

[Rod1]

I dont believe that either. Some probably did, but they had to have a way to realistically train their techniques which did not involve breaking the law. Were talking a mojority here.

You do realize that Japan was in a feudal system 14 years before the creation of Judo right? Are you familiar with the term kirisute gomen?

Think about it. The police, the military ect.. all trained in these Koryu Arts. If they trained nothing but Kata and no actual resistance that would make for a pretty shitty force right there when they actually had to use it.

What "military"? what "police"? they were in a feudal system, of course they had more than kata, but not necesarily sporting sparring.

When the Meiji restoration came Jujutsu was seen as a barbaric thing of the past, and with good measure.

BTW the mugging and the picking of fights is on Jigoro Kano's book take it as you want.

Also isnt that the way BJJ came to be developed? picking up fights?

 

[lechien]

Also isnt that the way BJJ came to be developed? picking up fights?

LOL. got yourself confused with the Gracie Challenge and the pitboys!

 

[Ryo]

You do realize that Japan was in a feudal system 14 years before the creation of Judo right? Are you familiar with the term kirisute gomen?

Yes, and it in no way proves your point. That term refers to the right of a Samurai to strike down another person of lower social class then him IF he has been dishonored. That has nothing to do with picking fights to test out your jujutsu or to mug people. Kirisute Gomen was a serious thing. The Samurai's actions had to be proven in court with witnesses in a similar way as we do today. If his actions were not found to be correct he could be beheaded.

No where in that word is there the meaning your looking for or trying to use.

What "military"? what "police"? they were in a feudal system, of course they had more than kata, but not necesarily sporting sparring.

The Shogun had a standing army ofcourse :icon_neut....... Tokugawa Bakufu means MILITARY Governmet..... as well as the fact that the Daiymo had hundreds of Samurai retainers that were part of their private Armys. What about that does not constitute an Army?

There were police that patrolled every area as well as magistrates and judges in every town....

When the Meiji restoration came Jujutsu was seen as a barbaric thing of the past, and with good measure.

Um... yea.......... what does that have to do with anything? The Meiji was a time of change and Western technology was looked at as the future... while most things related to the Samurai were looked at as holding them back.

BTW the mugging and the picking of fights is on Jigoro Kano's book take it as you want.

BJJ has a bad rep as being thuggish and picking fights in Brazil and that may be true for some of the practicioners........ but that doesnt mean its true for all of them. Misconceptions and bad lables get stuck on alot of things for the actions of a few. Thats what people do. But that book does not state that these Jujutsu guys were testing their techniques out to see if they worked by breaking the law. As a whole. Maybe some of them did individually, but it would have brought shame on there art or school.

Also isnt that the way BJJ came to be developed? picking up fights?

BJJ was developed by pressure testing the art against other fighters yes...... but that is not the same thing as actively breaking the law by harming others or trying to mug them....

Carlos and Helio didnt get out on the street and beat the shit out of some poor dude that was weaker then them or who didnt want to fight just to see if their shit worked. They challenged other fighters. That is what Judo did as well. Thats not the same thing your suggesting.