is bjj the same thing as kosen judo

[Jay Pan ROKK]

current judo yes, but look at the Kosen Judo tapes and youll notice a major difference between it and sport or olympic judo

BJJ is a sport now, they made explicit rules and pointing systems ...

 

[QingTian]

Kosen is a rule set for college matches in Japan. It's not an offshoot of Judo.

 

[VampireMonk]

I bet the Kosen guys are far behind the brazilians,

my understanding is that they were almost extinct at one point, compared to BJJ
which is only growing.

 

[thecas]

. . I.E. and arm bar would have originally been an arm break. most throws were originally ment to harm if not kill an opponent and at the very least set them up for a finishing technique.

are not in BJJ.

I disagree. U can read the pride rules. It didnt say anything about the techniques u said was'originally an arm break' So it being not in the rules, why won't the fighters used them? coz its impractical.

 

[blanko]

YES! If you get a chance to pick up a copy of a Kosen Judo tape you'll be able to see for yourself! If you told someone to sit down and popped in a Kosen Judo tape they would come to the conclussion that they were watching BJJ..... thats how similar the two are!
You can get a ton of clarification and order tapes from this link

the short answer: yes

the long answer: yes.

if you look at the kosen judo tapes you see alot of moves that you would think that a judoka wouldnt have. These tapes were made in the 70's by 5 or 6 judokas who were at least in their 60's, among them (in the tapes) was Kimura himself (tha guy that beat helio). its an interesting video, and sets straight the myth that the gracies vastly improved the techniques. Although i think that anyone can innovate, i think the gracies give themselves a bit too much credit in that respect.




the one thing that i forgot to add was the fact that count koma picked up some catch wrestling on his way to brazil, which probably influenced his personal style and also his teaching style. so there would be a little bit of catch too in bjj as compared to kosen....

Well YES and NO.

What is "kosen judo"? It is kano's original judo(focusing on throws) + fushen ryu jiu-jitsu(groundwork). If you look at how BJJ fighters fight today they fight like the fushen ryu guys did (i.e pulling guard) so i would say that BJJ is closer to Fushen ryu jiu jitsu than "kano's judo". Yes you might see some positions techniques that both styles share but grappling (as we all know it) is not a colletion of moves, it's a flow. Sure you might have seen the spider guard in some book that was printed 50 years ago but how was it used? Was it used like elbows/knees in karate? There are elbows and knees in karate you know but does that mean that karate and Muay Thai are the same things? Ofcourse not. Judo and BJJ are forms of Jiu-jitsu. Judo focuses on the throws of jiu-jitsu and BJJ on the groundwork.

 

[Bubble Boy]

At an early point in Judo's development it started to become a very ground fighting oriented style. The tournament rules allowed lot's of mat work, pulling guard, etc. Kano wanted his style to be a spectator sport and he felt that watching fighters roll around on the ground for 15 minutes was not what people wanted to see. So he changed the rules to emphasize throwing.

He granted that the big 7 Schools college tournament should continue with the old ground fighting friendly rules though. He did this because he wanted newaza specialists in judo, and he realized the importance of newaza in general. A school in Kyoto continued training in the newaza style, preparing for these tournaments. That is the Kosen Judo school.

Maeda, who taught Carlos Gracie, left Japan before Kano made the rule change. So Maeda was a strong newaza specialist. It's not that Maeda was a Kosen Judo stylist, it's that all judo of the time looked like Kosen judo. Maeda was from the Kodokan.

Kosen Judo is essentially the judo of the early 1900's put in a time capsule and carried to the modern day.
You could say the same thing of BJJ.

 

[Ybot]

My view is based mostly on the few videos of kosen that I have seen and the fact that I take BJJ.

They are not the same, but close:

Though Kosen is definately more newaza oriented they still include the throws of judo, and seem to have more elaborate ways of initiating newaza from standing.

BJJ, though the end technique is the same seems to break things up more and have more variety as far as guard games go (butterfly, spider, De La Riva, etc.). Though Kosen may use positions similar to these guards it seems as though these positions are more of a transition than an actual position to fight from.

The biggest thing I saw was that even Kosen seems to have a pinning rule. So strategy is different, probably more turtling than BJJ etc.

Basicly these are my observations on my limited exposure to Kosen, and so I may be mistaken in some of my observations.

 

[VampireMonk]

yeah pin the guy for 30 sec for a point,
that makes the grappling on the ground less pure than BJJ.

 

[Bubble Boy]

What is "kosen judo"? It is kano's original judo(focusing on throws) + fushen ryu jiu-jitsu(groundwork). If you look at how BJJ fighters fight today they fight like the fushen ryu guys did (i.e pulling guard) so i would say that BJJ is closer to Fushen ryu jiu jitsu than "kano's judo" ...Judo and BJJ are forms of Jiu-jitsu. Judo focuses on the throws of jiu-jitsu and BJJ on the groundwork.

I think it's important to understand that Kano didn't invent the techniques in Judo. He compiled them from other sources. He even borrowed techniques from western wrestling. It's also important to note that he compiled them from many different ju-jitsu styles in Japan at the time, of which there were hundreds. Of the systems that had groundfighting as part of their curriculum, he would pick the most effective techniques. When Maeda went to Brazil he was taking this distillation of all the ju-jitsu's as taught by Kodokan Judo at the time, and Kodokan Judo at the time was a strong newaza discipline. Fushen Ryu was one of the many styles absorbed by Judo.

 

[blanko]

but judo's ground game was from fushen ryu.

 

[QingTian]

I read that kano's tenshin something ryu was also ground work based, along with striking. (old school BJJ + MT!)

 

[blanko]

iirc tenshin ryu was more stricking and throwing based.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

They have similarities but defferencees as well if you read through all these posts

 

[Freedom-fighter]

whilst we are talking about liniage all judo is a product of ju jitsu to begin with anyway..

 

[blanko]

well yes and no. There were uiu-jitsu styles that had kicks and punches and judo doesn't so let's just say that Judo is a collection of various jiu-jitsu throws and fushen ryu groundwork.

 

[Wild Dan Hibiki]

oh for fucks sake, not this shit again

 

[Q mystic]

Very cool to read about these arts history. I did have the 1882 by Kano down pat for getting my yellow. That was about it though.

 

[Bubble Boy]

oh for fucks sake, not this shit again

YES!!!!!!

What took you so fucking long? You realize this thread started on 10-08 and it's now the 11th?

 

[Hamit Aktas]

No.

 

[VampireMonk]

Japanese Jiujitsu = library

Judo = sport, Kano wanted somthing more functional

BJJ = also a sport, but went back to the roots of JJJ and had less restrictions than Judo.