is bjj the same thing as kosen judo

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by woot woot NJ, Oct 8, 2005.

  1. woot woot NJ

    woot woot NJ Banned Banned

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    Is bjj not just kosen judo? Maeda was a student of this art and taught it to carlos, so is bjj not kosen judo. This has probably been discussed before but i am new to posting so just humor me. and how do i get an avatar
     
  2. pugz

    pugz Green Belt

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    yes and no. and you will probably get flamed for this. the quick answer is kinda like this. BJJ was a dirivative of JUDO. but its the fundimentals that are different. actually todays BJJ groundwork closely resembles the JUDO groundwork done in the 60's and 70's. rules were put into place to make JUDO matches more entertaining and a lot of the gourndwork suffered because of this. you didnt have to be as good because the matches were stood up sooner. BJJ has taken the techniques of its parent system JUDO and added other techniques (mostly lower body breaks and submissions) the true difference between the 2 however is the way and what is trained. much like many boxing trainers may use all the same tools but the true differences are in the way they train and exactly what they work with. BJJ and JUDO both owe the vast majority of their techniques to Traditional Ju JItsu. hoewver both BJJ and JUDO for the most part are sport based resulting in the loss of some of the original meaning behind the techniques. I.E. and arm bar would have originally been an arm break. most throws were originally ment to harm if not kill an opponent and at the very least set them up for a finishing technique.

    so in the short. is BJJ JUDO not really but it is very close. its the way that each is trained that is the true difference. most of the techniques are the same. BJJ has a few lower body techniques not found in JUDO and JUDO has/uses some takedowns that are not in BJJ.
     
  3. Don Gollito

    Don Gollito Orange Belt

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    That's a good answer wrt bjj and judo.

    However, the question is not about judo in general, but about KOSEN JUDO.

    So, the questions is really 2 parts:

    1) Did Maeda teach Carlos Gracie, Sr. Kosen Judo?

    2) If so, how different is BJJ than the Kosen Judo Maeda taught Carlos Gracie, Sr.?

    We also know that in about 4 years (is that about right?), Maeda could not have taught Carlos Gracie everything he knew about jiu-jitsu/kosen judo. Was Carlos Gracie possibly the equivalent of a blue or purple belt?

    This begs other questions. We already know that today's Jiu-jitsu seems to have evolved significantly, partly from the contribution of the Gracie family and partly from other modern practitioners.

    So, are the more recently "discovered" moves and strategies actually new and previously unkown? Or were they already part of the jiu-jitsu/Kosen Judo that Maeda and others already knew but that was not taught to Carlos Gracie?
     
  4. stl_81_99

    stl_81_99 Brown Belt

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    This is how Rickson Gracie, son of Helio Gracie and #1 BJJ practioner in the world, understands the origins and evolution of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu:

    "Jiu-Jitsu, which means gentle art is the oldest form of martial art. It originated in India more than 2000 years before Christ. It was created by monks who could not use any type of weapons to defend their lives against barbarian attacks. It spread through China, and eventually took root and was elaborated on in Japan becoming the first martial art style. The samurai clans in Japan adopted Jiu-Jitsu as their own traditional style to defeat an opponent regardless if the situation was striking, throwing or grappling. With the passing years, they split the techniques and developed other martial arts styles, such as judo, akido, karate, etc.

    In 1914, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu champion Esai Maeda migrated to Brazil, where he was instrumental in establishing a Japanese immigrant community. His efforts were aided by Gast
     
  5. mistasanshou

    mistasanshou Blue Belt

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    YES! If you get a chance to pick up a copy of a Kosen Judo tape you'll be able to see for yourself! If you told someone to sit down and popped in a Kosen Judo tape they would come to the conclussion that they were watching BJJ..... thats how similar the two are!
    You can get a ton of clarification and order tapes from this link! http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/news_archive_0603.shtml
     
  6. woot woot NJ

    woot woot NJ Banned Banned

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    how do i get an avatar.
     
  7. mistasanshou

    mistasanshou Blue Belt

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    you get one after you reach 150 posts!
     
  8. krait

    krait Purple Belt

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    Actually its 250. The belt rankings and what you get with them are listed in the FAQ's
     
  9. longdog33

    longdog33 Guest

     
  10. steve

    steve Orange Belt

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    damn. This may be the best thread ever on this subject. No flaming yet? Has the world of sherdog gone mad? Look at us. All grown up and shit.
     
  11. Jay Pan ROKK

    Jay Pan ROKK ! The Mind is a Myth !

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    Judo and BJJ share the same moves coming from many traditional Jiu-Jitsu in Japan, however they are much different in just one aspect, Judo is a sport while BJJ is a fight, which makes them go opposite ways ...
     
  12. stl_81_99

    stl_81_99 Brown Belt

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    I'm not arguing either way, just posting how the Gracie's understand it.

    Royce claims that Helio was taught "traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu":

    http://www.roycegracie.tv/bio.htm (click "Helio Gracie")
     
  13. eljamaiquino

    eljamaiquino Blue Belt

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    Yes. It is kosen judo with a different name, and more emphasis on the ground. A lot of techniques hae been refined and the transitioning is superior, but if you watch the tapes. Its the same thing.....

    Exact same.....
     
  14. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    Carlos, and more importantly Helio developed the style further. It focused more on the ground and the guard position. BJJ is a very evolved art: a hybrid grappling style if you will. The submission holds are traditional judo holds and some catch-wrestling style holds. but a lot of what the Gracies developed over the yeas, adding a few things every generation, bade the style more effective. Guys like Rorion also decided to incorporate some wrestling into it, for example. It's a hybrid grappling art that kept what was more effective for a real fight, and dumped what was not, and for that reason it is different from Kosen or Kodokan Judo.
     
  15. cazzo

    cazzo Green Belt

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    I trained at a Kosen Judo club in Italy. The teacher is a student of Cesare Barioli. I have also done BJJ. In my experience, they were extrememly different. I can say that the groundwork at Kosen was a lot better than most Judo schools.
     
  16. dmoralesf

    dmoralesf Yellow Belt

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    the short answer: yes

    the long answer: yes.

    if you look at the kosen judo tapes you see alot of moves that you would think that a judoka wouldnt have. These tapes were made in the 70's by 5 or 6 judokas who were at least in their 60's, among them (in the tapes) was Kimura himself (tha guy that beat helio). its an interesting video, and sets straight the myth that the gracies vastly improved the techniques. Although i think that anyone can innovate, i think the gracies give themselves a bit too much credit in that respect.




    the one thing that i forgot to add was the fact that count koma picked up some catch wrestling on his way to brazil, which probably influenced his personal style and also his teaching style. so there would be a little bit of catch too in bjj as compared to kosen....
     
  17. belikechris

    belikechris Guest

    if i had been the first one to answer i would have said yes and no and so on...but it is already writen up there
     
  18. dmoralesf

    dmoralesf Yellow Belt

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    current judo yes, but look at the Kosen Judo tapes and youll notice a major difference between it and sport or olympic judo
     
  19. cazzo

    cazzo Green Belt

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    At the Kosen dojo I trained at, they called current Judo..."Ju-Sport."
     
  20. Jay Pan ROKK

    Jay Pan ROKK ! The Mind is a Myth !

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    Still they are different, at least geographically and lineage ...
     

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