is bjj the same thing as kosen judo

[GoodbyeBlueSky82]

I know there was the belief perpetuating that Kosen developed after Kano's judo guys lost to the Fusen Ryu guys and decided to allow for a separate ruleset of judo that is Kosen, to develop. Is there any truth in that?

And for what it is worth, a style is defined by its rulesets. BJJ is different from Judo partly because of the sparring ruleset, same with Boxing opposed to Karate.

Anyways, is the kosen ruleset still done today in high school competitions?

I have no idea about internationally, but here in the Southeastern U.S. - some Judo organizations are including Kosen divisions as part of their local Judo tournaments. Some of the Judo adults will enter it, and it also attracts random BJJ guys who can come compete for the heck of it (usually much cheaper than the big IBJJF tournaments, and mid range ones like Newbreed and Grappling Industries). I don't like the rule set and implementation of the rules that I have seen though. Giving up points to your opponent because they achieved a dominant position like side control makes obvious sense, but the refs were still standing people back up quickly and not letting people on bottom work escapes or people on top hunt for submissions. Too much of the "pin opponent for X seconds" spirit of Olympic Judo and not a focus on submission. I'd prefer a typical BJJ ruleset where you get your points for advancing position, but the action never stops until there is a submission, an out of bounds, or time runs out. Also, without fail, every Kosen competition I have seen starts from the knees and forbids standing back up. Too restrictive and silly.

 

[lechien]

That is really weird about that starting from the knee for kosen judo and not awarding ippon fir pin.

The kosen judo competition I did was starting from standing and you still lose by getting thrown.
The only difference was you could pull guard and there were longer period on the newaza.
However I remember getting stood up for lack of action while I was doing a bow and arrow choke

 

[GoodbyeBlueSky82]

That is really weird about that starting from the knee for kosen judo and not awarding ippon fir pin.

The kosen judo competition I did was starting from standing and you still lose by getting thrown.
The only difference was you could pull guard and there were longer period on the newaza.
However I remember getting stood up for lack of action while I was doing a bow and arrow choke

That sounds like a better format.

 

[miscend]

According to the late Mehdi BJJ is just Judo. He was even angry with the Gracies for suggesting that BJJ was anything other than Judo.

That’s because the Brazilians learnt from Judoka. And all the techniques in BJJ are there in Judo. What’s different is the rule set which has led BJJ to develop a different game and different setups.

Mehdi knows his stuff, he trained with the Gracies before going to train at the Kodokan in Japan. After that many of the Gracies kids went to him to refine their Judo.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

I have no idea about internationally, but here in the Southeastern U.S. - some Judo organizations are including Kosen divisions as part of their local Judo tournaments. Some of the Judo adults will enter it, and it also attracts random BJJ guys who can come compete for the heck of it (usually much cheaper than the big IBJJF tournaments, and mid range ones like Newbreed and Grappling Industries). I don't like the rule set and implementation of the rules that I have seen though. Giving up points to your opponent because they achieved a dominant position like side control makes obvious sense, but the refs were still standing people back up quickly and not letting people on bottom work escapes or people on top hunt for submissions. Too much of the "pin opponent for X seconds" spirit of Olympic Judo and not a focus on submission. I'd prefer a typical BJJ ruleset where you get your points for advancing position, but the action never stops until there is a submission, an out of bounds, or time runs out. Also, without fail, every Kosen competition I have seen starts from the knees and forbids standing back up. Too restrictive and silly.

I too, find this quite strange. It seems to just be a newaza competition, which I've heard of but never participated in. Perhaps they just use the kosen name because it's cooler?

 

[Ryo]

I too, find this quite strange. It seems to just be a newaza competition, which I've heard of but never participated in. Perhaps they just use the kosen name because it's cooler?

This is the most likely explanation. Watch some of the Kosen Judo tournaments from the 70 and 80s. They don't start from the knees ever. You can win by throw but it is almost completely a newaza competition. Lots of De la Riva guard.

I wouldnt trust any Kosen outside of Japan.