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I'm not going to argue semantics, but the crux of the debate is that there were no "Kosen judo" schools or instructors. Kosen judo = Kodokan judo.
is bjj the same thing as kosen judo
- Thread starter woot woot NJ
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I'm not going to argue semantics, but the crux of the debate is that there were no "Kosen judo" schools or instructors. Kosen judo = Kodokan judo.
The middle 2/3 of that was no different than traditional JJJ.
The ending scene was like an ad from a comic book when I was a little kid.
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No such thing like
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I know there was the belief perpetuating that Kosen developed after Kano's judo guys lost to the Fusen Ryu guys and decided to allow for a separate ruleset of judo that is Kosen, to develop. Is there any truth in that?
And for what it is worth, a style is defined by its rulesets. BJJ is different from Judo partly because of the sparring ruleset, same with Boxing opposed to Karate.
Anyways, is the kosen ruleset still done today in high school competitions?
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What xande said was that there is no bjj , its only jiu jitau that is due to the fact that in brazil bjj is called just jiu jitsu... the rule set thing you just made it up
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No. To improve their groundwork they just invited the Fusen Ryu guys to teach at the Kodokan, which had nothing to do with the development of Kosen rules, in fact Kano was flat against it.
I keep reading contradictory things over this, but personally I doubt they are. There are one or two posters in f12 who lived and trained judo in Japan, with luck one of them will know the answer.
The Imperial Universities still have Kosen rules tournaments.
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There are Kosen judo tournaments in Kansai area. Kyoto university guys are famous for it.
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Yes they do.
Also, guys like koji komuro and Yuki Nakai are direct descendants of this school boy type of judo. Both trained under Kanae Hirata.
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He said we compete in bjj but we do jiujitsu.
Just paraphrasing, but i am pretty sure he meant bjj is a ruleset and gracie jj is the style."we fight bjj, we train jiujitsu"
Starts at 10:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kesBNjZ-m-o&sns=em
Cuz, if that style of jiujitsu is represented by what you see in an ibjjf competition, then its the gayest combat system there is.
Gracie jujitsu with the 3 sides(sport, self defense, vale tudo) i would consider a gendai jujitsu no problem.
But bjj competition shit is meaningless nowadays.
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in this video he does indeed says whay you said, my bad, I saw another video of his... bjj is not a ruleset though, ibjjf is a rule set, bjj is just the way amaricans (and none brazilians) refer to jiu jitsu in brazil... its semantics.
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When talking about BJJ, Judo, Kosen-Judo, among others, it is necessary to differentiate what is "sport", that is, the application of certain techniques under a certain set of pre-established rules; and what is "martial art", that is, the set of techniques that can be applied in any fighting situation that someone may be involved in.
When we talk about sport, then Kosen Judo and BJJ are different things, each modality is governed by different institutions, have different rules, and therefore, are different things.
But when we talk about martial art, then it's the same thing.
The BJJ is a lineage that began with Jigoro Kano and developed outside Japan, alternatively to the Japanese lineages. However, even being developed in extremely distant locations, the techniques, fundamentals, and all, are the same.
People outside Brazil usually believe that the BJJ is an adaptation of Judo performed by the great master Helio and transmitted to his family, but this version is just a markenting propaganda, as the techniques of Jiu Jitsu were taken to the world. by Gracies through the UFC show.
But Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has its origins in the Brazilian Marines. During the early twentieth century sailors were trained mainly in boxing and capoeira, were very tough and unruly, carried out many riots and the only way the officers found for the situation was physical punishment (lashing, whipping, etc.). Thus the Brazilian government, with good relations with the Japanese Empire (Brazil is the country with the largest Japanese immigration) seeing that the Nipponic Armed Forces were trained in Kano Jujutsu (Judo), decided to start a training program of this martial art with the marines.
In 1908 the navy rescued a group of Japanese from a wreck, among them was a Kodokan teacher, Sada Miyako, who spent a year teaching Judo / Jiujitsu to Brazilian sailors, with the intention of forming a training program that from 1909 began to be applied in the training curriculum. So before the Gracies there were already Jiu Jitsu based fighters in the country.
An important marine in the history of Jiu Jitsu was Luiz França. He learned the basics of martial art in the navy, then became a student of the first teacher to establish a Judo / Jiu JItsu academy in Brazil in the Amazon, Soshihiro Satake. He later became a student of Maeda (Count Koma), in the same class as Carlos Gracie, in the state of Pará, for four years, and later of Jyoji (Geo) Omori, in Rio de Janeiro. So the learning of France was much more solid and much longer than the learning of the Gracies.
Luiz França became a Jiu Jitsu teacher in the Navy, and it was there that he trained another important personality, Oswaldo Fadda, a young Marine who was his best student and intellectual heir in France. After leaving the navy he established a gym (Fadda de Jiujitsu Academy) on the outskirts of Rio de Janeiro, and held a dispute against the Gracie Academy in which they emerged victorious.
So the BJJ has these two main lineages: the Gracie lineage and the Fadda lineage, and all the teachers practically learned in one of these two. So the techniques taught and applied by all Jiu Jitsu fighters are those imparted by Kodokan masters: Sada Miyako, Soshihiro Satake, Mitsuyo Maeda and Jyoji Omori. It is even a mistake to call the art "Brazilian jiu jitsu" since its roots are Japanese, so in Brazil it is only called "jiu jitsu".
Now, the importance that the sporting aspect has taken on both Judo and Jiu Jitsu has brought a certain deficiency for practitioners, especially for those struggling interested in competitions and championships. A Jiu Jitsu fighter today is very deficient in standing fighting, just as a Judo athlete is very deficient in ground fighting, as most train thinking on the rules and forms of fighting in the competition, although the set of techniques belong to both modalities.
When we talk about sport, then Kosen Judo and BJJ are different things, each modality is governed by different institutions, have different rules, and therefore, are different things.
But when we talk about martial art, then it's the same thing.
The BJJ is a lineage that began with Jigoro Kano and developed outside Japan, alternatively to the Japanese lineages. However, even being developed in extremely distant locations, the techniques, fundamentals, and all, are the same.
People outside Brazil usually believe that the BJJ is an adaptation of Judo performed by the great master Helio and transmitted to his family, but this version is just a markenting propaganda, as the techniques of Jiu Jitsu were taken to the world. by Gracies through the UFC show.
But Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has its origins in the Brazilian Marines. During the early twentieth century sailors were trained mainly in boxing and capoeira, were very tough and unruly, carried out many riots and the only way the officers found for the situation was physical punishment (lashing, whipping, etc.). Thus the Brazilian government, with good relations with the Japanese Empire (Brazil is the country with the largest Japanese immigration) seeing that the Nipponic Armed Forces were trained in Kano Jujutsu (Judo), decided to start a training program of this martial art with the marines.
In 1908 the navy rescued a group of Japanese from a wreck, among them was a Kodokan teacher, Sada Miyako, who spent a year teaching Judo / Jiujitsu to Brazilian sailors, with the intention of forming a training program that from 1909 began to be applied in the training curriculum. So before the Gracies there were already Jiu Jitsu based fighters in the country.
An important marine in the history of Jiu Jitsu was Luiz França. He learned the basics of martial art in the navy, then became a student of the first teacher to establish a Judo / Jiu JItsu academy in Brazil in the Amazon, Soshihiro Satake. He later became a student of Maeda (Count Koma), in the same class as Carlos Gracie, in the state of Pará, for four years, and later of Jyoji (Geo) Omori, in Rio de Janeiro. So the learning of France was much more solid and much longer than the learning of the Gracies.
Luiz França became a Jiu Jitsu teacher in the Navy, and it was there that he trained another important personality, Oswaldo Fadda, a young Marine who was his best student and intellectual heir in France. After leaving the navy he established a gym (Fadda de Jiujitsu Academy) on the outskirts of Rio de Janeiro, and held a dispute against the Gracie Academy in which they emerged victorious.
So the BJJ has these two main lineages: the Gracie lineage and the Fadda lineage, and all the teachers practically learned in one of these two. So the techniques taught and applied by all Jiu Jitsu fighters are those imparted by Kodokan masters: Sada Miyako, Soshihiro Satake, Mitsuyo Maeda and Jyoji Omori. It is even a mistake to call the art "Brazilian jiu jitsu" since its roots are Japanese, so in Brazil it is only called "jiu jitsu".
Now, the importance that the sporting aspect has taken on both Judo and Jiu Jitsu has brought a certain deficiency for practitioners, especially for those struggling interested in competitions and championships. A Jiu Jitsu fighter today is very deficient in standing fighting, just as a Judo athlete is very deficient in ground fighting, as most train thinking on the rules and forms of fighting in the competition, although the set of techniques belong to both modalities.
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First of all I call this above a bullsh*t.
Second, I haven't read it all in the thread ... nor will I.
Now, answering the question ... no. At least not since the addition of the first technique outside of Judo's newaza. That if I'm not mistaken was the heel hook that was learned from Butokukai. It can be argued, however, that the addition of techniques and other future changes were in fact a result of the separation and, therefore, invention or transformation of the BJJ, rather than the change itself.
Anyway, the answer remains no.
And the idea that in Brazil is used only the word Jiujitsu and that this proves that BJJ=Judo is a lie, not the part of the name used but the part of what is considered Judo. BJJ and Judo Kosen are not the same, and while possibly some people consider both one and the same I doubt they are majority ... or even many.
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I don't see ippon throws or pins in BJJ...
Judo?
Kano developed Curriculum of techniques description.
Kosen rules are different but Judo is the same Judo.
Just cos scoring criteria and rules modern sport judo doesn't looks like 50 years ago.
Judo masters might be able to teach with dual approach; sport for modern & just Judo.
JJJ does have standup fighting a lot, Judo does have chokes etc etc.
BJJ looks more for parter game if evaluate what I saw, but I don't know curriculums.
Rules too does a lot of impact.
Kano developed Curriculum of techniques description.
Kosen rules are different but Judo is the same Judo.
Just cos scoring criteria and rules modern sport judo doesn't looks like 50 years ago.
Judo masters might be able to teach with dual approach; sport for modern & just Judo.
Mainly cos rules I think.
JJJ does have standup fighting a lot, Judo does have chokes etc etc.
BJJ looks more for parter game if evaluate what I saw, but I don't know curriculums.
Rules too does a lot of impact.
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