BJJ is bjj the same thing as kosen judo

No...

Look you've already said you know nothing about Japanese history, so why keep debating on something you have no knowledge of and most certainly are wrong about?

Police sergeants called Yorkiki and Police officers called Doshin carried out the orders of the magistrate. In other words they enforced the law. They carried two swords and were full fledged Samurai.

I suggest reading a book on the subject.

I agree i know nothing, but i dont see any reference to samurai patrolling the streets and roads during Edo period. Because the "town guard" was the Nihin, the ones patrolling and reporting.

The Yorkiki as you mention did not function like a modern day police, this without even knowing about japanese history, chances are that their society was similar to Roman, with the vigiles doing the police work and the urban cohorts handled the violent crimes.

And here it is a detailed explanation.

JAPAN ECHO - JAPANESE INDUSTRY MAKES A COMEBACK Vol. 31, No. 3 - Law Enforcement in the Edo Period

Only 25 yoriki and 120 doshin for a 1,000,0000 population that's 1 police officer per 6900 persons.

The article refers as how the majority of disputes were solved by local "neighborhood watches" and only the major crimes involved a police officer coming to oversee the whole process, but not as to provide the only muscle.

A standing Army obviously. The shogunate and the Daimyo's kept standing Armys. The Shogunate kept tight control over the size of these Army's for obvious reasons, but they were still there. Daiymo Army's were comprised of Samurai retainers.

During the Tokugawa shogunate, samurai increasingly became courtiers, bureaucrats, and administrators rather than warriors. With no warfare since the early 17th century, samurai gradually lost their military function during the Tokugawa era (also called the Edo period).

By the end of the Tokugawa era, samurai were aristocratic bureaucrats for the daimyo, with their daisho, the paired long and short swords of the samurai (cf. katana and wakizashi) becoming more of a symbolic emblem of power rather than a weapon used in daily life.


Wikipedia.

There was no commoner army btw.

See above for my answer to why your wrong.

See link above.

You see, i'm not disagreeing with Jigoro Kano. Not at all. I'm sure there is some truth to what he says. However, I'm saying that the actions of a few does not account for the actions of many. Just because some thughs were picking fights and breaking the law with their Jujutsu, does not mean that the Koryu as a whole were corrupt or thuggish. The public as a whole looks at these things and passes judgment on an entire group for the actions of a few people. I can say with certainty that these arts as a whole would not have been willingly breaking the law and bringing shame to their arts. Dishonor was the worst thing for these people.

Maybe it was a thing of the post-tokugawa era, but in the wording of the book it seemed it was quite common, ill try to find an online excerpt, maybe it was the translation.

Some of them would maybe. But they are criminals and were certainly looked down on by society. But the Masters of these arts did not send out their studenst to break the law to test out their ability's. Thats my entire point.That would have been stupid and wold have resulted in being arrested or killed. If I for example decided to rob somebody and throw them with kosoto Gari for example (just using this because its one of my favorites :D) and severely injure them, I would be breaking the law. Is Judo to blame for my actions? No ofcourse not. I am just one person who happens to train Judo and also be a criminal. You get where I'm going with this? But ofcourse the news and people would report that Martial Artist had committed the crime and that Judoka were thugs. Thats how people are.

Well they needed a way to test their skills and without Shiai or standarized competitions, oh well. I guess you are right on this one.

That is no way to actually learn How to use your techniques. If you examine wrestling for example from every culture in the world, dating back thousands of years you will find that they actively practiced their techniques with full resistance. That is the only realistic way of achieving anything in MA. Since the human body does not change, this apply s to every human being that has ever walked the Earth.

No, they practice ritualized sports, Mongolian warfare involved mainly cavalry and they practiced wrestling, their military training involved drilling complicated cavalry maneuvers and practicing archery (through hunting).

Mongolian wrestling has absolutely nothing to do with mongolian warfare.

You think this concept was lost on the Japanese? I dont.

No, the Japanese called it Sumo.

I have common sense. Thats what I rely on. But not only that, but that fact that Fusen Ryu Jujutsu beat the Kodokan using newaza techniques in full contact competition. Now I've been grappling for quite a while now and I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe people can actually learn to grapple without actually grappling. Its not possible.

Again, there are degrees of sparring, Kano was thrown to the wolves day one.

Here is a very good excerpt and thread in Judo forum


100% agree, Jigoro Kano did not createt it but rather wanted to preserve as a means to enhance Kata training. For many Jujutsu schools, Kata was the only way to convey the spirit and movement of their techniques based on knowledge from mouth to mouth (=Kuden) and/or Densho (written documents). Most documents did not mention the details, and it was impossible to learn all the secrets behind the techniques only from the Densho.
Strict confidentiality was charateristic of most Jujutsu Ryuha which limited its expansion beyond a region (=Han), a village or even a family. Some stories of "special" techniques (=Hiden) were sometimes plain lies, used to deceive potential enemies.

Some Jujutsu schools had hundreds of Kata, others like Kito Ryu have only 21 (or several more). Students had to learn exactly as specified per grade. Takeshi Sakuraba in his book(1940) explains how Kata developed into Randori. In many Jujutsu schools, they found potential danger and deficiency in the Kata training due to lack of reality (not always but sometimes among mediocre practioners). New development was, just to use a case in Nage-no-Kata, something like this.

Uke strikes at Tori`s top of the head (=Noten), Tori quickly turns in for Seoi Nage. Timing is perfect, movement correct and looked real, 100 points at the Kata Competition. Now Uke strikes not straight down but sideways (contrary to the spek), Tori would fail and fall down. Next time, knowing that Uke does not conform to the Kata spek, Tori is ready for Uke`s attack (=striking), be it sideways, straight, uppercut or else, and counters effectively. This was called KATANOKORI or "whatever remains after Kata".

This method of practise solved one problem, as told by Jigoro Kano, of Tsuji Nage. In an effort to "test" the technique acquired, Jujutsu practioners went out to the street late at night and caught some passer-by to throw. Well, Jigoro Kano`s story is funny. A Jujutsu master was walking late at night in the street when a Tsuji Nage came and threw him on the ground, let`s say, by Seoi Nage. The master said o him "Young-man, look what you have on your back. " The young man found a piece of paper pasted on his left shoulder. "Young man, you need some more practice as I could have easily cut your throat instead of pasting it!"

This is what Randori was all about. One thing to remember, Judo was practised on the tatami, so was Jujutsu but not always. It would have been more dangerous and difficult to practice Randori on the ground. Practice on the tatami was one of the strong factors to make Randori as a training method more fashionable. If we are careful, we see a clear link between Kata and Randori. Randori is an expanded form of Kata. Seen in this context, we can easy understand why Jigoro Kano repeatedly complained about "deteriorating Randori". Randori is not for win or loss but testing the techniques so far acquired. This way Randori will enhance Kata training.

Sorry for a long input.


How could Kano claim Randori as a new concept? - JudoForum.com

Again, that is not the same thing your suggesting. That is a match between two trained fighters.

That is not the same thing as a trained fighter going out and beating down someone who has no desire to fight or who's much weaker then them for no other reason then to try out techniques. Not even close to the same thing.

Beating someone much weaker would simply destroy the point of going out in the first place. Practice may have seen thuggish but it was necesary.
 
I agree i know nothing, but i dont see any reference to samurai patrolling the streets and roads during Edo period. Because the "town guard" was the Nihin, the ones patrolling and reporting.

Rod... honestly... you realize that it is very rare that you make a legitimate point? You missed the entire point. I'll explain why below.

The Yorkiki as you mention did not function like a modern day police, this without even knowing about japanese history, chances are that their society was similar to Roman, with the vigiles doing the police work and the urban cohorts handled the violent crimes.

The Yoriki and the Doshin were the only officials who had Police authority. They were Samurai. Your article actually only proves my point. They handled all investigations as modern day police would. The urban cohorts you speak about DID NOT have police authority. They only used them as informants. Infact many of them were Yakuza. They would not have access to samurai arts.


JAPAN ECHO - JAPANESE INDUSTRY MAKES A COMEBACK Vol. 31, No. 3 - Law Enforcement in the Edo Period

Only 25 yoriki and 120 doshin for a 1,000,0000 population that's 1 police officer per 6900 persons.

The article refers as how the majority of disputes were solved by local "neighborhood watches" and only the major crimes involved a police officer coming to oversee the whole process, but not as to provide the only muscle.

Thats not what that article says. It says they were charged with settling all manner of disputes on a temporary basis.

They were not police officers, and they were not Samurai. They would not have access to Samurai training. Which is what we are talking about.

Your article says

We might also note that when the d
 
If kosen judo is newaza focused judo then I would say yeah it's the same just more traditional
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Rod... honestly... you realize that it is very rare that you make a legitimate point? You missed the entire point. I'll explain why below.

The Yoriki and the Doshin were the only officials who had Police authority. They were Samurai. Your article actually only proves my point. They handled all investigations as modern day police would. The urban cohorts you speak about DID NOT have police authority. They only used them as informants. Infact many of them were Yakuza. They would not have access to samurai arts.

The second factor facilitating the maintenance of law and order in Edo was the important role of community self-government associations. Each neighborhood (called machi or ch
 
Havent trawled through all 11 pages to see if anyone else mentioned this, but Kosen as a rule set was created in 1924 - 20 years after Meada left japan, 10 years after he landed in Brazil, 7 years after he started teaching Carlos in Belem, in fact Carlos was no longer being taught by Maeda at the point the first kosen comp was held in japan... Given the Limited availability of YouTube then, I'd question the role of kosen in the early development of BJJ.
 
Havent trawled through all 11 pages to see if anyone else mentioned this, but Kosen as a rule set was created in 1924 - 20 years after Meada left japan, 10 years after he landed in Brazil, 7 years after he started teaching Carlos in Belem, in fact Carlos was no longer being taught by Maeda at the point the first kosen comp was held in japan... Given the Limited availability of YouTube then, I'd question the role of kosen in the early development of BJJ.

Me too, although the original rules of Kodokan allowed unlimited newaza.

Kosen basically put a very powerful competitive aspect on Judo, if we are going to draw comparatives for BJJ its "Kosen" would had been the creation of the tournaments that gave rise to modern BJJ.
 
Please research the history of the arts before talking about them. Ex: do you know what styles judo came from or how it was developed. In Jigoro Kano's book Mind over Muscle, page 22, he states that he studied tenjin shinyo-ryu jujitsu, kito-ryu, and subsequently all the other schools, (kyushin-ryu, sekiguchi-ryu, shibukawa-ryu,yoshin-ryu, shino no shinyo-ryu, yagyu-ryu and takenouchi-ryu). On page 23 he goes on to state that he kept the strong points of the schools and compensated for the areas in which he felt they were lacking by incorporating various devices of his own.
according to wiki Kosen judo (高專柔道 Kōsen jūdō?) refers to a set of competition rules of Kodokan judo with particular emphasis on ground grappling techniques such as pinning holds (osaekomi-waza), joint locks (kansetsu-waza) and chokeholds (shime-waza), referred to as newaza in Japanese martial arts. 1925 changes were largely a reaction to Kosen competition's emphasis on newaza. As opposed to earlier ruleset, transition to groundwork was limited by much stricter rules and by 1929, yusei-gachi rule was introduced to end draws in matches. However, Kosen schools continued to hold interscholastic competition (高專大会 kōsen taikai?) tournaments with former rules.
Also on wiki, Gracie held the rank of 6th dan in judo. Gracie realized, however, that even though he knew the techniques theoretically, the moves were much harder to execute. Due to his smaller size, he realized many of the judo moves required brute strength ( TO ME, as a judoka, it means he still needed to work on his waza and this is why he wasn't upgraded to 7th dan) which did not suit his small stature. Consequently, he began adapting judo for his particular physical attributes,[citation needed] and through trial and error learned to maximize leverage, thus minimizing the force that needed to be exerted to execute a technique. (HELLO THIS IS MAXIMUM EFFICENCY FOR MINIMAL EFFORT - ONE OF THE CONCEPTS OF JUDO) From these experiments, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, later known as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, was created. The focus of BJJ is mainly newaza. Thats why there are unfortunate jokes like: Brazilian JiuJitsu Throwing Techniques -- This four-page book is a compendium of useful techniques to get your opponent between your legs.
BJJ is simular to the kosen rules however as dr.kano incorporated various devices of his own, so did the gracies. Therefor they are not one in the same.

Some neat info for you BJJ practitioners check out Mitsuyo Maeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Remember no brains no gains
 
LOL. Asthough 'leverage' didn't exist before he "introduced" it.

It didn't. Kano and Mifune had to muscle their way through all those judo techniques. Good thing Helio took the brute force out of juji-gatame and totally revolutionized it by creating the armbar.
 
to online judokas? yes


To accomplished judokas that know both bjj and Judo? NO. Such as Macro Barboso who was on the national judo team in brasil and trained in japan or Leando Leite who was Pan Am judo champion. But for your run of the mill online wapanese judoka... Yes they will shout to the moon that it's the same thing.

So who is this dude exactly? I'm not going to bother to look him up because uncountably he is is good at throwing people on their head and that's it. I"m going to trust people who study the history of the stuff not a dude that can ippon me.

All I know is Helio for all his magical revulsion of the art simply removed a lot of the throwing aspects of it because he was physically frail and focused on getting better at the aspects of the art he could get great at.

That doesn't mean he created something new. He just refined something for his personal use and taught it to other people.

Crazy enough Kimura just happened to know the same moves as Helio when he came over and set everybody straight.
 
It didn't. Kano and Mifune had to muscle their way through all those judo techniques. Good thing Helio took the brute force out of juji-gatame and totally revolutionized it by creating the armbar.
Kano developed judo as a non-leverage, strength-based martial art. Ever seen pics of Kano-sensei? Dude was a BEAST. Neck as thick as a bull's and thighs the size of most men's torsos. ... :icon_neut
 
I thought it was obvious that Helio emphasized the parts of judo that benefited smaller people (ie. the groundwork) and expanded on ground fighting more than judo did.

Fast forward to now. BJJ has the most elaborate, technical and least restrictive groundwork of any martial art. So no, kosen judo is not the same as BJJ.
 
I thought it was obvious that Helio emphasized the parts of judo that benefited smaller people (ie. the groundwork) and expanded on ground fighting more than judo did.

Fast forward to now. BJJ has the most elaborate, technical and least restrictive groundwork of any martial art. So no, kosen judo is not the same as BJJ.
Absolutely.

Anyone who says judo newaza equals BJJs groundwork MAY be correct with some minor exceptions (like Flavio Canto or Koji Komuro or you can flog the old Kimura vs Helio etc) but on average BJJ groundwork is much more in-depth.

Superior? I don't know - on average I'd have to say to however the context would have to be taken into account. For example a judoka in a BJJ comp? BJJ. A BJJer in a judo comp. Judo. A BJJer vs a judoka in a an MMA match? Depends on who is on top - maybe the BJJer has an edge here.

Range and depth of technique definitely BJJ bar none.
 
I thought it was obvious that Helio emphasized the parts of judo that benefited smaller people (ie. the groundwork) and expanded on ground fighting more than judo did.

Fast forward to now. BJJ has the most elaborate, technical and least restrictive groundwork of any martial art. So no, kosen judo is not the same as BJJ.

Japanese catch wrestling is far better in all three areas in terms of practical application for real life scenarios.

BJJ is simply a development on what already existed to suggest it is so different as to warrant Helio being deemed a inventor tragically undermines the legacy of a whole generation of Japanese Judokans
 
I thought it was obvious that Helio emphasized the parts of judo that benefited smaller people (ie. the groundwork) and expanded on ground fighting more than judo did.

Fast forward to now. BJJ has the most elaborate, technical and least restrictive groundwork of any martial art. So no, kosen judo is not the same as BJJ.

Kosen judo was extremely technical, modern judo groundwork is less technical but requires more perfection of technique and fast thinking.

90% of the things you do in BJJ wouldnt work in judo newaza, because there is time limits and different points of entry.

How much do BJJers train to open a turtle, get a submission or turn within a small time frame? very few, BJJ focus on guard passing and then moving into a position where a sub can be worked while still controlling the opponent.

But what happens when you dont have to pass guard to win? like in MMA? the whole importance of BJJ diminishes as opposed to the importance of other sports that also deal with groundwork.
 
Kano developed judo as a non-leverage, strength-based martial art. Ever seen pics of Kano-sensei? Dude was a BEAST. Neck as thick as a bull's and thighs the size of most men's torsos. ... :icon_neut

lol Good answer. :D
 
How is this debate still going on?

Kōsen 高専 is just an abbreviation of Kotosenmongakko 高等専門学校. A varisty competition between the Imperial Japanese universities.

Its not this magical mystical style of Judo, kept secret from the world. Anymore than Eton Fives is a secret magical form of tennis.

The Kotosenmongakko 高等専門学校 tournament still exists and is still conducted between the Imperial Universities in Japan.

Here are some examples from this varsity competition.







Pretty much any white westerner claiming to teach 'Kosen Judo' is blowing smoke up your arse. As you can't teach an inter-university competition.

That's like a Rugby or Rowing coach claiming they only teach Oxbridge Varsity Rugby/Rowing.

Now can we all stop being silly and go back to training please.

 
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