is bjj the same thing as kosen judo

[td82394]

Is Judo really JJJ?

 

[Rod1]

Yes, and it in no way proves your point. That term refers to the right of a Samurai to strike down another person of lower social class then him IF he has been dishonored. That has nothing to do with picking fights to test out your jujutsu or to mug people. Kirisute Gomen was a serious thing. The Samurai's actions had to be proven in court with witnesses in a similar way as we do today. If his actions were not found to be correct he could be beheaded.

No where in that word is there the meaning your looking for or trying to use.

Im no japanese historian but that's what i read in Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano.

The Shogun had a standing army ofcourse :icon_neut....... Tokugawa Bakufu means MILITARY Governmet..... as well as the fact that the Daiymo had hundreds of Samurai retainers that were part of their private Armys. What about that does not constitute an Army?

An army that did not participate in major wars for over 200 years? There is a reason why there is a difference between old jujutsu and modern jujutsu, old jujutsu involved armor, new jujutsu focused on atemi, throws and locks.

There were police that patrolled every area as well as magistrates and judges in every town....

And they were called literally "non-humans", not the kind that would be training along samurai.

Um... yea.......... what does that have to do with anything? The Meiji was a time of change and Western technology was looked at as the future... while most things related to the Samurai were looked at as holding them back.

Barbaric because its practiotioners were bullying people on the streets.

BJJ has a bad rep as being thuggish and picking fights in Brazil and that may be true for some of the practicioners........ but that doesnt mean its true for all of them. Misconceptions and bad lables get stuck on alot of things for the actions of a few. Thats what people do. But that book does not state that these Jujutsu guys were testing their techniques out to see if they worked by breaking the law. As a whole. Maybe some of them did individually, but it would have brought shame on there art or school.

Again, Jigoro Kano's book, i know its not concrete evidence but i kind of trust him.

BJJ was developed by pressure testing the art against other fighters yes...... but that is not the same thing as actively breaking the law by harming others or trying to mug them....

Because they had randori.

Carlos and Helio didnt get out on the street and beat the shit out of some poor dude that was weaker then them or who didnt want to fight just to see if their shit worked. They challenged other fighters. That is what Judo did as well. Thats not the same thing your suggesting.

YouTube - rickson gracie beach figth

 

[nefti]

Rod 1 is the type of guy that will say "look at their samuari sprit! Look how they engage in 眞劍勝負!! They are true warriors!" if the Gracies were named "Yamamoto".

 

[Rod1]

Rod 1 is the type of guy that will say "look at their samuari sprit! Look how they engage in 眞劍勝負!! They are true warriors!" if the Gracies were named "Yamamoto".

I dont get it.

 

[lechien]

I dont get it.

I got it.

You are bias towards the Gracies because they are not Japanese.

Edit, do you know the story about the beach fight?

 

[lechien]

GJJ containts striking, can i punch in competition?

Same principle

Not really.

You can go to a Gracie Academy and ask for VT fight which they will oblige and beat you up.

You cannot go to a Judo club and ask to roll with leg locks.

why is that?

 

[Rod1]

I got it.

You are bias towards the Gracies because they are not Japanese.

Oh so its just trolling then.

Edit, do you know the story about the beach fight?

I see Rickson sucker punching a guy while someone is blatantly recording it as if he expected it.

Maybe someone happened to have a camera and somehow got the attention of a fight that was not happening in a multitude with hot girls and beautiful beach, then they were so kind as to forward it to Gracie and co.

It would be credible in the era where every cellphone has a camera and youtube, but back in those days BS, that was premeditated.

 

[lechien]

Oh so its just trolling then.



I see Rickson sucker punching a guy while someone is blatantly recording it as if he expected it.

Maybe someone happened to have a camera and somehow got the attention of a fight that was not happening in a multitude with hot girls and beautiful beach, then they were so kind as to forward it to Gracie and co.

It would be credible in the era where every cellphone has a camera and youtube, but back in those days BS, that was premeditated.

I am not surprised at all.

You just do not know the story of this beach fight.

Do you know at least of was the "opponent"?

 

[Rod1]

Not really.

You can go to a Gracie Academy and ask for VT fight which they will oblige and beat you up.

You cannot go to a Judo club and ask to roll with leg locks.

why is that?

What does this has to do with anything?

Stop trolling please.

 

[Rod1]

I am not surprised at all.

You just do not know the story of this beach fight.

Do you know at least of was the "opponent"?

Hugo Duarte, luta livre fighter.

 

[lechien]

What does this has to do with anything?

Stop trolling please.

You mentionned that GJJ has strikes but do not use them in competition.

You suggested that Judo had leg locks but do not use them in competition.

I just pointed the flaw in your statement.

Go to a GJJ academy and they will oblige with strikes included challenge match.

Go a Judo club and ask to roll with leg locks?

 

[nefti]

Hugo Duarte, luta livre fighter.

wow you can google! good for you!

 

[lechien]

Hugo Duarte, luta livre fighter.

Excellent.

So now do you understand the history of the speedo fight?

 

[Rod1]

You mentionned that GJJ has strikes but do not use them in competition.

You suggested that Judo had leg locks but do not use them in competition.

I just pointed the flaw in your statement.

No, the statement was that people train for the rules even if a system has other "side dishes".

Go to a GJJ academy and they will oblige with strikes included challenge match.

So that makes GJJ fighters good at striking now? and what about BJJ academies?

And what if a Judo dojo accepts your challenge does that makes all judo dojos now experts on leglocks?

Go a Judo club and ask to roll with leg locks?

I have rolled with leglocks in my judo club, and it doesnt matters at all because even if they were to roll with punches they dont train and they dont spar standing up.

Even academies which allow striking will focus on striking on the ground and in limited classes.

The idiocy of your statement is monumental and the facts are there, BJJ guys cant punch because they dont train punches PERIOD, you train for the rules and that's it.

BTW

In Hideiko Yoshida dojo you can train with leglocks.

 

[Rod1]

Excellent.

So now do you understand the history of the speedo fight?

Absolutely not, i see Rickson getting the fight physical and a "bystander" with an expensive camera "coincidentially" recording the fight before it even happened.

Why not challenge him to a ValeTudo fight then?

But hey, you managed to derail the zombie thread.

 

[ShindoNinja]

You mentionned that GJJ has strikes but do not use them in competition.

You suggested that Judo had leg locks but do not use them in competition.

I just pointed the flaw in your statement.

Go to a GJJ academy and they will oblige with strikes included challenge match.

Go a Judo club and ask to roll with leg locks?

At my Judo school we do roll with leg locks.... but we also do JJJ and BJJ.

 

[CajunJudoka]

I was taught a knee bar at my Judo dojo.

 

[Ryo]

Im no japanese historian but that's what i read in Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano.

No, you read exactly what I wrote. What you wrote is not the same thing. Samurai could not legally do violence against lower class without a good reason. Dishonor had to be proven. If it was proven, no problem. If not that Samurai could be put to death and not even granted the honor of suppuku. This was not something to be taken lightly.

An army that did not participate in major wars for over 200 years? There is a reason why there is a difference between old jujutsu and modern jujutsu, old jujutsu involved armor, new jujutsu focused on atemi, throws and locks.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Why do you constantly bring up points that are irrelevant? You said there was no Army or Police.

That is 100% false. The tokugawa, as well as the feudal lords kept both in abundance.

And they were called literally "non-humans", not the kind that would be training along samurai.

:icon_lol: Are you kidding me? The police force were Samurai and certainly official like judges and magistrate were definitely of noble Samurai blood. Samurai were the only ones allowed to carry swords.

Barbaric because its practiotioners were bullying people on the streets.

You missed my point. Some of them may have been doing that and it gave all Jujutsu Ryu a bad rep, but it would have still brought shame and dishonor to Jujutsu. Not all of them were doing this. Jujutsu was looked at more as a relic because of western technology. Anything non-Japanese was IN and traditional Japanese arts that represented the Samurai or having to do with what they had just CAME OUT OF was looked down upon.

Again, Jigoro Kano's book, i know its not concrete evidence but i kind of trust him.

You have to take what he said into context....

Because they had randori.

More retarded posts from you. It makes no sense to think that traditional Jujutsu schools did not practice randori. You wouldnt even have the first clue about what to do even if you picked a fight with somebody. The moves and feel are not drilled into your memory. It would be pointles to even practice. Its rediculous.

YouTube - rickson gracie beach figth

That was a fight between two Martial artist. That was not the gracies beating the shit out of some defenseless person for no good reason. You should educate yourself on the history between those two.

 

[Rod1]

No, you read exactly what I wrote. What you wrote is not the same thing. Samurai could not legally do violence against lower class without a good reason. Dishonor had to be proven. If it was proven, no problem. If not that Samurai could be put to death and not even granted the honor of suppuku. This was not something to be taken lightly.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Why do you constantly bring up points that are irrelevant? You said there was no Army or Police.

See how i put the army and police in quotes.

They were not an standarized army or a police as in the executive power. The samurai were no longer fighting wars but pursuing arts and the town guards were the nihin or non-humans.

That is 100% false. The tokugawa, as well as the feudal lords kept both in abundance.

Kept what armor? troops?

:icon_lol: Are you kidding me? The police force were Samurai and certainly official like judges and magistrate were definitely of noble Samurai blood. Samurai were the only ones allowed to carry swords.

What we know as police, were called Nihin or non-humans, they were your everyday patrolman. Their jobs would be simply to report to people, the actual enforcing as in the executive im guessing were armed samurai. But they were not patrolling the streets exposing themselves. So they were not catching thieves or restraining them as in modern police.

You missed my point. Some of them may have been doing that and it gave all Jujutsu Ryu a bad rep, but it would have still brought shame and dishonor to Jujutsu. Not all of them were doing this. Jujutsu was looked at more as a relic because of western technology. Anything non-Japanese was IN and traditional Japanese arts that represented the Samurai or having to do with what they had just CAME OUT OF was looked down upon.

Again, im not arguing Japanese history which i know next to crap about, im simply saying what i heard of jujutsu history which is basically judo books. The view of Kano of old jujutsu may have been skewed and for all it matters he could had been Rorion'in our asses for all i know.

You have to take what he said into context....

What context? he said that to test their abilities they would go to a road and assault unsuspecting people.

More retarded posts from you. It makes no sense to think that traditional Jujutsu schools did not practice randori. You wouldnt even have the first clue about what to do even if you picked a fight with somebody. The moves and feel are not drilled into your memory. It would be pointles to even practice. Its rediculous.

You have to differentiate what "randori" was back then, its different from sparring, the hell Kano himself was thrown to the wolves before learning technique as it was customary by his teacher. What they did however was more of a unpredetermined Kata than actual sparring, the real sparring would have no tap and would be everything goes.

By removing dangerous techniques, and implementing rules to avoid injury then randori reached its current form, and more importantly Shiai. The concept of "i have a sub locked so you tap" was probably as alien to them as doing tsukuri without kake.

Again, their words, if you have historical evidence that it wasnt like that, then it probably wasnt, its not like Kano was Jesus and never BS anyone or anything.

That was a fight between two Martial artist. That was not the gracies beating the shit out of some defenseless person for no good reason. You should educate yourself on the history between those two.

Didnt Helio break the arm of a boxer in a match once? im not saying its a bad thing, the hell that barbaric or thuggish attitude its what brought BJJ where it is, and without the UFC it wouldnt be as famous as it is, as much as people throw crap at Humaita for their marketing and attitude, they ride on what they created.

 

[Ryo]

They were not an standarized army or a police as in the executive power. The samurai were no longer fighting wars but pursuing arts and the town guards were the nihin or non-humans.

No...

Look you've already said you know nothing about Japanese history, so why keep debating on something you have no knowledge of and most certainly are wrong about?

Police sergeants called Yorkiki and Police officers called Doshin carried out the orders of the magistrate. In other words they enforced the law. They carried two swords and were full fledged Samurai.

I suggest reading a book on the subject.

Kept what armor? troops?

A standing Army obviously. The shogunate and the Daimyo's kept standing Armys. The Shogunate kept tight control over the size of these Army's for obvious reasons, but they were still there. Daiymo Army's were comprised of Samurai retainers.

What we know as police, were called Nihin or non-humans, they were your everyday patrolman. Their jobs would be simply to report to people, the actual enforcing as in the executive im guessing were armed samurai. But they were not patrolling the streets exposing themselves. So they were not catching thieves or restraining them as in modern police.

See above for my answer to why your wrong.

Again, im not arguing Japanese history which i know next to crap about, im simply saying what i heard of jujutsu history which is basically judo books. The view of Kano of old jujutsu may have been skewed and for all it matters he could had been Rorion'in our asses for all i know.

You see, i'm not disagreeing with Jigoro Kano. Not at all. I'm sure there is some truth to what he says. However, I'm saying that the actions of a few does not account for the actions of many. Just because some thughs were picking fights and breaking the law with their Jujutsu, does not mean that the Koryu as a whole were corrupt or thuggish. The public as a whole looks at these things and passes judgment on an entire group for the actions of a few people. I can say with certainty that these arts as a whole would not have been willingly breaking the law and bringing shame to their arts. Dishonor was the worst thing for these people.

What context? he said that to test their abilities they would go to a road and assault unsuspecting people.

Some of them would maybe. But they are criminals and were certainly looked down on by society. But the Masters of these arts did not send out their studenst to break the law to test out their ability's. Thats my entire point.That would have been stupid and wold have resulted in being arrested or killed. If I for example decided to rob somebody and throw them with kosoto Gari for example (just using this because its one of my favorites ) and severely injure them, I would be breaking the law. Is Judo to blame for my actions? No ofcourse not. I am just one person who happens to train Judo and also be a criminal. You get where I'm going with this? But ofcourse the news and people would report that Martial Artist had committed the crime and that Judoka were thugs. Thats how people are.

You have to differentiate what "randori" was back then, its different from sparring, the hell Kano himself was thrown to the wolves before learning technique as it was customary by his teacher. What they did however was more of a unpredetermined Kata than actual sparring, the real sparring would have no tap and would be everything goes.

That is no way to actually learn How to use your techniques. If you examine wrestling for example from every culture in the world, dating back thousands of years you will find that they actively practiced their techniques with full resistance. That is the only realistic way of achieving anything in MA. Since the human body does not change, this apply s to every human being that has ever walked the Earth. You think this concept was lost on the Japanese? I dont.

Again, their words, if you have historical evidence that it wasnt like that, then it probably wasnt, its not like Kano was Jesus and never BS anyone or anything.

I have common sense. Thats what I rely on. But not only that, but that fact that Fusen Ryu Jujutsu beat the Kodokan using newaza techniques in full contact competition. Now I've been grappling for quite a while now and I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe people can actually learn to grapple without actually grappling. Its not possible.

Didnt Helio break the arm of a boxer in a match once? im not saying its a bad thing, the hell that barbaric or thuggish attitude its what brought BJJ where it is, and without the UFC it wouldnt be as famous as it is, as much as people throw crap at Humaita for their marketing and attitude, they ride on what they created.

Again, that is not the same thing your suggesting. That is a match between two trained fighters.

That is not the same thing as a trained fighter going out and beating down someone who has no desire to fight or who's much weaker then them for no other reason then to try out techniques. Not even close to the same thing.