International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VI

[freakroor]

Another pointless strawman. I, of course, have never said Hamas aren't terrorists, and don't need to go through a tedious checklist of irrelevant questions.

Do you have thoughts on a full and permanent ceasefire (until someone breaks it, of course), which is what you and I are discussing, but you're trying to avoid for some reason?

If hamas are terrorists, and terrorists arent included in a ceasefire, then why shouldnt Israel go after hamas? who are you calling for a ceasefire against?

 

[Deleted member 585708]

If hamas are terrorists, and terrorists arent included in a ceasefire, then why shouldnt Israel go after hamas? who are you calling for a ceasefire against?

As explained... A full and total ceasefire between all parties.

 

[freakroor]

As explained... A full and total ceasefire between all parties

what if israel agrees to ceasefire and then hamas breaks through the border and attack a music festival

 

[Deleted member 585708]

what if israel agrees to ceasefire and then hamas breaks through the border and attack a music festival

So no ceasefire ever? Seriously?

 

[freakroor]

So no ceasefire ever? Seriously?

i'm all for it. But if israel agrees to a ceasefire and then hamas breaks through the border and attacks another music festival, then what?

 

[Deleted member 585708]

i'm all for it. But if israel agrees to a ceasefire and then hamas breaks through the border and attacks another music festival, then what?

What do you think? More bloodshed.

 

[balkanbomber85]

I've said that since the start of this event, Palestine and moreover the Palestinians worst enemies are their muslim allies.

None of those Arab states or other muslim countries really care about the Palestinians, about Palestinian woman and children, they see them purely as prolonged arm in the battle of islam against another religion, in this case the Jews.

They would rather see the last Palestinian child get killed than to see them retreat and leave, or surrender to Israel and be integrated into a Jewish state.

 

[Blayt7hh]

This thread went fucking nuts.

I thought this thread was about the extended duration of mass murder of citizens in Gaza following mass murder of citizens in Israel.

For me, the focus remains the same. Ceasefire now.

Won't happen though.

Not enough blood has been shed for Netanyahu. More must die. Thousands more. Possibly tens of thousands more.

Don't @ me with 'what other choice do they have' sociopathy.

There was a ceasefire that ended when rockets were launched at Israel by Hamas fighters. Essentially, you're asking Israel to keep letting Hamas sucker punch them. You are made about war crimes being committed but Hamas started this conflict by committing a litany of them. Worse yet their war crimes were only meant to sow terror in the populace and not meant to attack the Israeli government. You only demand that one side plays fair and fights clean in this conflict, and that's stupid. I can't fault Israel for turning a deaf ear to people like you around the world.

I am sure you want Hamas to fight fair. I'm sure you want them to abide by international laws of war. But we all know that is never going to happen. I certainly would never condone Israel sinking to their level and raping women and gunning down children in cold blood. However, I do not disagree with them going total war and besieging the city. After all despite you dismissing the reality of the situation, they don't have any other choice if their goal is to subdue Hamas and none of you can come up with any realistic solution for Israel.

@Koya I did try to read your article like a week ago but it was behind a paywall. I think it was something about food shortages in Gaza. I can tell you that on October 7th I already knew this was going to end with a large scale humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

 

[aries]

what if israel agrees to ceasefire and then hamas breaks through the border and attack a music festival

Maybe Israel shouldn't ignore it's own border intelligence force (all women and they paid the ultimate price), the Egyptian intelligence service's warnings and station more security on the border when Hamas drill attacking mock IDF stations in plain sight for months on end?

 

[aries]

There was a ceasefire that ended when rockets were launched at Israel by Hamas fighters. Essentially, you're asking Israel to keep letting Hamas sucker punch them. You are made about war crimes being committed but Hamas started this conflict by committing a litany of them. Worse yet their war crimes were only meant to sow terror in the populace and not meant to attack the Israeli government. You only demand that one side plays fair and fights clean in this conflict, and that's stupid. I can't fault Israel for turning a deaf ear to people like you around the world.

I am sure you want Hamas to fight fair. I'm sure you want them to abide by international laws of war. But we all know that is never going to happen. I certainly would never condone Israel sinking to their level and raping women and gunning down children in cold blood. However, I do not disagree with them going total war and besieging the city. After all despite you dismissing the reality of the situation, they don't have any other choice if their goal is to subdue Hamas and none of you can come up with any realistic solution for Israel.

@Koya I did try to read your article like a week ago but it was behind a paywall. I think it was something about food shortages in Gaza. I can tell you that on October 7th I already knew this was going to end with a large scale humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

There was no sucker punch, the Israelis had months of activity that they observed and chose to ignore. The head of Egyptian intelligence services even warned Netanyahu personally, which he ignored.

 

[aries]

As explained... A full and total ceasefire between all parties.

I think if Israel continues to slaughter civilians and not agree to a ceasefire we should treat them like Serbia, and NATO should bomb them into a ceasefire. It is the only language the Israeli government will understand. Or we could just stop arming them, and they will run out of munitions eventually.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

There was a ceasefire that ended when rockets were launched at Israel by Hamas fighters. Essentially, you're asking Israel to keep letting Hamas sucker punch them. You are made about war crimes being committed but Hamas started this conflict by committing a litany of them. Worse yet their war crimes were only meant to sow terror in the populace and not meant to attack the Israeli government. You only demand that one side plays fair and fights clean in this conflict, and that's stupid. I can't fault Israel for turning a deaf ear to people like you around the world.

I am sure you want Hamas to fight fair. I'm sure you want them to abide by international laws of war. But we all know that is never going to happen. I certainly would never condone Israel sinking to their level and raping women and gunning down children in cold blood. However, I do not disagree with them going total war and besieging the city. After all despite you dismissing the reality of the situation, they don't have any other choice if their goal is to subdue Hamas and none of you can come up with any realistic solution for Israel.

@Koya I did try to read your article like a week ago but it was behind a paywall. I think it was something about food shortages in Gaza. I can tell you that on October 7th I already knew this was going to end with a large scale humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Are you talking about the temporary truce, that both sides violated throughout on a much smaller scale?

I think that would be acceptable, to be fair.

Anything much smaller scale would be much better than what we've got now.

But as @aries suggests, and I don't agree with them, but if the IDF aren't capable of stopping themselves slaughtering tens of thousands of Palestinian citizens, NATO will eventually have to step in.

They cannot be allowed to kill hundreds of thousands of people, which is ultimately where we're headed, and where excuse makers insist we head.

 

[Blayt7hh]

There was no sucker punch, the Israelis had months of activity that they observed and chose to ignore. The head of Egyptian intelligence services even warned Netanyahu personally, which he ignored.

You realize they probably get a constant flood of those reports? Have you actually bought into the story that they just let it happen? Come on you have to realize that is nonsense.

The sucker punch comment applies to agreeing to a ceasefire and getting attacked during it too

 

[Deleted member 585708]

You realize they probably get a constant flood of those reports? Have you actually bought into the story that they just let it happen? Come on you have to realize that is nonsense.

The sucker punch comment applies to agreeing to a ceasefire and getting attacked during it too

Either way, there are two things Israel needs to do post-ceasefire:

1) Ensure it has tighter defences (a natural response for any nation after any kind of attack)
2) Ensure it works towards having better relations with Palestinians

 

[Blayt7hh]

Are you talking about the temporary truce, that both sides violated throughout on a much smaller scale?

I think that would be acceptable, to be fair.

Anything much smaller scale would be much better than what we've got now.

But as @aries suggests, and I don't agree with them, but if the IDF aren't capable of stopping themselves slaughtering tens of thousands of Palestinian citizens, NATO will eventually have to step in.

They cannot be allowed to kill hundreds of thousands of people, which is ultimately where we're headed, and where excuse makers insist we head.

Do you mean the UN will step in? I don't see why NATO would

Either way I think this conflict has laid bare for the world to see two realities- one is that this western way of warfare post WWII is something that really only the west can do, and probably really only because those wars aren't being fought in their homelands. And two, that NATO and the UN are both pretty much extensions of the US. The US won't back the UN on anything in Israel, so it won't happen.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

Do you mean the UN will step in? I don't see why NATO would

Either way I think this conflict has laid bare for the world to see two realities- one is that this western way of warfare post WWII is something that really only the west can do, and probably really only because those wars aren't being fought in their homelands. And two, that NATO and the UN are both pretty much extensions of the US. The US won't back the UN on anything in Israel, so it won't happen.

The US for sure needs to put pressure on sooner rather than later. They're clearly doing so behind the scenes, but as the continued destabilization of Middle Eastern security ratchets up, the US will continue to get dragged in further and further. The security of it's own international military outposts is already at serious risk.

It will only get worse until Netanyahu is deposed and the IDF reined in by someone with an ounce of sense.

 

[aries]

You realize they probably get a constant flood of those reports? Have you actually bought into the story that they just let it happen? Come on you have to realize that is nonsense.

The sucker punch comment applies to agreeing to a ceasefire and getting attacked during it too

The head of Egyptian intelligence services went out of his way to warn Netanyahu personally that Hamas were about to do something big from Gaza. October the 7th was just a day after Yom Kippur 50 years on. To ignore that warning is sheer negligence.

Any attack by Hamas can be easily counted by the might of the IDF. October 7th was only possible because the IDF were badly undermanned in that region. Any surprise attack now would be immediately met with the full force of the IDF. We need to remember the massively asymmetric nature of this 'war'.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Either way, there are two things Israel needs to do post-ceasefire:

1) Ensure it has tighter defences (a natural response for any nation after any kind of attack)
2) Ensure it works towards having better relations with Palestinians

There is only so much you can do on defense. And Hamas is not stupid. Given enough time, they figured out a way around the extensive defenses Israel had in place.

The second one sure, but that works both ways.

The head of Egyptian intelligence services went out of his way to warn Netanyahu personally that Hamas were about to do something big from Gaza. October the 7th was just a day after Yom Kippur 50 years on. To ignore that warning is sheer negligence.

Any attack by Hamas can be easily counted by the might of the IDF. October 7th was only possible because the IDF were badly undermanned in that region. Any surprise attack now would be immediately met with the full force of the IDF. We need to remember the massively asymmetric nature of this 'war'.

So are you saying they purposefully let Hamas in? Or are you saying that Netanyahu was negligent? I mean either way it really doesn't matter though. Just because Hamas saw an opportunity and took it doesn't change the fact that they launched an attack and committed a bunch of heinous war crimes.

Maybe that is an important distinction in Israel when it comes time to hold people accountable within the government, but otherwise it's really neither here nor there. It's not like the IDF should let them off the hook for murdering 1200 people because they got caught with their pants down. I mean that is honestly just victim blaming.

 

[Cole train]

Do you mean the UN will step in? I don't see why NATO would

Either way I think this conflict has laid bare for the world to see two realities- one is that this western way of warfare post WWII is something that really only the west can do, and probably really only because those wars aren't being fought in their homelands. And two, that NATO and the UN are both pretty much extensions of the US. The US won't back the UN on anything in Israel, so it won't happen.

Will nitpick a bit , its USA which has the ability to wage western warfare which we have seen, europes offensive ability is about zero thanks to stuff that came out due to ukr.

Btw mentioning generally that nato stepped in balkan wars at 40k civvy casualty rate

 

[Deleted member 585708]

There is only so much you can do on defense. And Hamas is not stupid. Given enough time, they figured out a way around the extensive defenses Israel had in place.

I wouldn't expect it again.

It was so horrific and so large scale, it was basically 9/11 for Israel.

I don't expect 9/11 to be repeated, nor would I expect October 7 to happen again in my life time.