Opinion H1-B Visas. How do we fix this mess?

[MicroBrew]

Remember when Disney replaced 250 workers with H1Bs and those employees had to train the H1Bs? Lol fuck those American employees, they didn’t need to make a life for themselves and their families apparently.

My inlaw is in the computer field. He and many of his co-workers - all with high paying white collar jobs - had to train foreign replacements, but unlike many of his co-workers he still has his old job. So when people say there aren't enough American to fill positions, I don't buy it. It may be true in some cases but it is exaggerated to justify replacing Americans with foreigners.

 

[kintana]

I'd make this one of my primary objectives when I run for office. One of the most corrupt and scam like programs that is enriching a minority of big players while lowering wages for many.

Unfortunately it's so prevalent in my area that I probably won't win, but I'd certainly open some eyes.

Every year 65,000 H1B visas are issued. This means that 65,000 foreign workers are placed directly into jobs in the US and, perhaps this will come as a shock to you, they DO NOT leave. Ever.

Either at the same time or shortly there after a H1B visa holder will then apply for a H4 visa which will allow them to move their spouse to the US. That spouse will then with the addition of a simple form be able to work. Often times the spouse works in the same industry. That means that somewhere someone with the best of intentions determined that the US economy has the need and can support 65,000 foreign workers. Yet the reality is that 130,000 US jobs will be filled by H1B and H4 visa recipients annually.

In case I wasn't clear earlier. 130,000 is not a floating number every year. It's an INFUSION of 130,000 foreign workers into the US economy EACH year.

"But they fulfill roles that can't be filled!". Do they? It's certainly the intent. But does anyone actually confirm this? I've sat in rooms with executives while ranking interviewees, and at no point did their visa status have any bearing on their ranking.

How long was the company not able to fulfill the role with local talent? Great question. But no one asks and certainly no government agency checks. There is no system or process in place that that validates whether the H1B or H4 visa holder was better qualified than a US citizen, NOR is any system or process in place to determine whether that continues to be the case.

Perhaps a company could not find an ETL developer when they originally needed one, but what about 6 months later? What about a year later? Often times a work visa holder will remain in the well beyond the duration of the original contract. No additional steps or re-evaluation will have to be taken by the company, they can simply renew the contract.

I'll edit the OP later with how H1B visas suppress wages and how they manage to stay in the US for a decade on various types of visas.

The reason this subject is in the news:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-order-expanding-immigration-restrictions


Vote Cooz

For the company I work for which is a global company in 23 countries we have really struggled to hire some specific talent in the USA. For 5 years we tried to hire a CRO role but we either do not find the right skillset or people leave after a while. A great CRO person is hard to find and harder to keep. Simply because you can probably easily become a Director with just a few years of experience.

So we used the H1B visa to hire outside talent. Personally I worked in the US with this visa and I left after a while but as a data scientist, there were no shortages of people available in the US.

However there was a shortage of a specific skillset I had with two technologies, my company even tried to get people from Google since it was a Google product we needed help with.

I can't say what the problem was and why US talent did not want to come to the company. But I can assume they didn't want to or we were not competitive enough in terms of the package.

So I was a clear choice and considering I had actually trained google on their own product I was an easy choice and visa was no issue.

I am sure there is local US talent but at one point you get to a certain level where the salary you can offer or the skillset you have is something that is difficult to find. Yes there are people in the same role in the US but maybe there are missing that 1 or 2 things you absolutely need.

I think the visa program is good. I personally loved living in the US and if the market feels it needs to find outside talent than it should. One of the best things about the US is the opportunities it provides. I was offered to stay in the US but I wanted to be closer to family.

 

[milkmandanl]

No, we don’t hire unqualified people, thanks to H1B we are able to snatch professionals who otherwise would not be available for us, and trust me, American citizens and green card card holders are the top priority if they’re available.

Are the H1B’s hired directly by your company and work for your company or do you use an H1B company like TCS, Cognizant, Mindtree? It is a fact that these H1B mill company’s spam applications and theN get granted the VAsT majority of the H1B’s...they also make a shit ton of money going to corporations that are not pure tech companies (finance, health care, travel industries) and offering up flat rates of up to 25% less than what the companies Are currently paying their employees with an end results of employees which are US citizens being let go...make no mistake about it...US citizens have, are and will continue to lose their jobs to H1B “mill shop” companies due to their ability to provide contracted work at a very low price point because they will blend in off shore rates.

 

[milkmandanl]

If you find a quality visa holder, it’s a great value for your company as you can retain them for a long time, keeping qualified Americans is hard as they easily move for better offers and locations

Only true in your experience and some others..I believe moving from job a to job b is more specific to a geo...people in Silicon Valley are more likely to bounce from job To job....in the late 90’s early to late 2000’s this moving Around was big In India...workers would change companies due to better and or more meals...many companies in India now have rules / laws in place to stop poaching...

 

[milkmandanl]

H1-B workers do have anchor babies. Just read an article about 2 days ago about an Indian H1-B couple who had 2 kids while working here. The mother was visiting her mother in India and is now stranded there, cause of strict US entry requirements for non citizens , owing to Wuhan virus. On a personal level I know of some H1-B couples who have had kids here.

I’ve worked with 10’s of thousands of H1B workers and most if not all had 2 kids...many of them end up becoming US citizens which is pretty good for the US as most are educated

 

[kintana]

they also make a shit ton of money going to corporations that are not pure tech companies (finance, health care, travel industries) and offering up flat rates of up to 25% less than what the companies Are currently paying their employees with an end results of employees which are US citizens being let go

I do agree with this and it is a challenge. And it might be worse now of COVID considering it is all becoming remote and the in-office worker might not be that necessary anymore. And if the in-office worker who is a programmer can work from their home and as a company you realize you can get the same talent from a cheaper place around the world. The current in-country employee suffers.

I keep thinking as a data scientist my job will be replaced by a computer or by cheaper labor. One thing I teach my team is that your talent cannot just be related to your tech skills. Learned how to improve the business without touching the keyboard. That is something that remote talent will never replace.

 

[Gandhi]

If you hire an H1b you're hiring an unqualified person. No if and or buts about it.

I promise any H1b hire won't pass the most simple technical test

Yet American companies keep hiring them, I wonder why that is? Are these companies going for less dollars over quality year after year after year? Or could it be that many of these workers are indeed qualified? Our 2 H1Bs are the hardest working most qualified in the company. The one in IT learns new tools faster than anybody.

People are right, individual experience will vary, but the popularity of the program in meeting business needs speaks for itself.

130,000/330,000,000 = 0.00040625

muh INFUSION

muh 0.04% INFUSION

of people who are here specifically to work hard and make a life for their family, and offer skills in demand


GTFO

And they don’t stay forever. They lose their job and they lose the visa. It’s not the same as a green card.

 

[Ophydian]

Math how does it work?

There is between 2-4M IT skilled laborers. Those 200k H1-B workers isn’t .08% kiddo
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2016/cb16-139.html

H1B is for doctors too numb nuts. Not everything revolves around IT.

 

[milkmandanl]

I do agree with this and it is a challenge. And it might be worse now of COVID considering it is all becoming remote and the in-office worker might not be that necessary anymore. And if the in-office worker who is a programmer can work from their home and as a company you realize you can get the same talent from a cheaper place around the world. The current in-country employee suffers.

I keep thinking as a data scientist my job will be replaced by a computer or by cheaper labor. One thing I teach my team is that your talent cannot just be related to your tech skills. Learned how to improve the business without touching the keyboard. That is something that remote talent will never replace.

yes, over time it a likely outcome to be replaced by automation or cheaper labor...also very true that softskills and learning the business are keys to “survival”

 

[MMAGA]

130,000/330,000,000 = 0.00040625

muh INFUSION

muh 0.04% INFUSION

of people who are here specifically to work hard and make a life for their family, and offer skills in demand


GTFO

Don't be this dense. You truly believe every single one of these folks smoothly transitions into society to become a productive member!?

MANY of these people will violate the terms of their visas. Mexicans and Central Americans are notorious for doing some jail time for DUI and/or spousal abuse.

 

[Russky]

Take a look at H1B occupation statistics:
https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=OC#LCA
90% of the H1B visa holders are computer SW/HW/Network/etc engineers.

Majority of the CS/EE engineers graduating from US universities are foreigners on J1 visa who have to leave the country once they graduate:
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2017/10/11/foreign-students-and-graduate-stem-enrollment
US education produces only about 20,000 engineers/year who can be employed.

Not the most recent article, but it shows that there are over 500,000 CS positions were open for 50,000 US graduates (they do not take into account that 80% of those graduates have to leave the country).
https://qz.com/929275/you-probably-should-have-majored-in-computer-science/

Basically, anyone who is willing to get a job with six figures salary can do that. Get CS/EE degree and after 3-5 years your salary will be in 100+K range if you are not too stupid. Even 60K of foreign H1B specialists coming each year is not sufficient to cover all these positions.

Why is this not happening? Why people do not want to get this decent salary and benefits? It would be very interesting to hear.

Cost of education does not seem to be an issue. There are low cost options like Community College with transfer to State university that can be as low as $20-30K for bachelor degree that can be paid off in a year. Even if it is $100K it can be paid off quickly.

My theory is that Math education is completely broken in the US. My kids were going to the best US schools and yet I had to spend tons of money and time to raise their understanding of Math to some adequate level. I am not talking about anything advanced. Just basic Math they are teaching at school. Even if they get "A" grades that does not mean they can solve any real math problems.

A few years back US department of Education realized that "Our Best In The World" system produces miserable results. That resulted in Common Core Standard system that did not make things any better. There are too many things that are broken and until attitude changes from "We Are The Greatest" to "We Suck" I do not expect any change.

 

[Cole train]

Take a look at H1B occupation statistics:
https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=OC#LCA
90% of the H1B visa holders are computer SW/HW/Network/etc engineers.

Majority of the CS/EE engineers graduating from US universities are foreigners on J1 visa who have to leave the country once they graduate:
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2017/10/11/foreign-students-and-graduate-stem-enrollment
US education produces only about 20,000 engineers/year who can be employed.

Not the most recent article, but it shows that there are over 500,000 CS positions were open for 50,000 US graduates (they do not take into account that 80% of those graduates have to leave the country).
https://qz.com/929275/you-probably-should-have-majored-in-computer-science/

Basically, anyone who is willing to get a job with six figures salary can do that. Get CS/EE degree and after 3-5 years your salary will be in 100+K range if you are not too stupid. Even 60K of foreign H1B specialists coming each year is not sufficient to cover all these positions.

Why is this not happening? Why people do not want to get this decent salary and benefits? It would be very interesting to hear.

Cost of education does not seem to be an issue. There are low cost options like Community College with transfer to State university that can be as low as $20-30K for bachelor degree that can be paid off in a year. Even if it is $100K it can be paid off quickly.

My theory is that Math education is completely broken in the US. My kids were going to the best US schools and yet I had to spend tons of money and time to raise their understanding of Math to some adequate level. I am not talking about anything advanced. Just basic Math they are teaching at school. Even if they get "A" grades that does not mean they can solve any real math problems.

A few years back US department of Education realized that "Our Best In The World" system produces miserable results. That resulted in Common Core Standard system that did not make things any better. There are too many things that are broken and until attitude changes from "We Are The Greatest" to "We Suck" I do not expect any change.

though i have to say that math what they teach to you in your school back in russia is pretty advanced.

i was forced to do math during summer vacation and had to use your books lol

you guys go through shit in first grade that people in europe go through on third

 

[Zazen]

Why are people against this? I don't understand.

It brings in talented people who will make the country better.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Why are people against this? I don't understand.

It brings in talented people who will make the country better.

Because it makes it harder for talented Americans to get the jobs they want. Spare me the, "But immigrants create new demand!" cliche. Most Americans capable of doing jobs that require specialized talent aren't sanguine about meeting the new demand of immigrants who need people to clean their pools.

 

[Zazen]

Because it makes it harder for talented Americans to get the jobs they want. Spare me the, "But immigrants create new demand!" cliche. Most Americans capable of doing jobs that require specialized talent aren't sanguine about meeting the new demand of immigrants who need people to clean their pools.

How do you know there are that many qualified Americans? People who defend it usually say there is a skill gap and they have trouble filling in positions

 

[djacobox372]

The reason the tech industry hires people on Visa is that they aren't as easily poached by another company because of the Visa hassles.

This is the reason that Microsoft hires almost exclusively Indian engineers these days. They'll work for less and they won't (can't) take a better job down the street.

I know many recruiters for tech companies and they all say this.

 

[Russky]

Because it makes it harder for talented Americans to get the jobs they want.

Which job you wanted to get and were not able to because of the **** H1B immigrants?

 

[djacobox372]

Do you even realize that H1B is for skilled workers like engineers or software developers ?

Do you think these dudes are taking American jobs ? In the fields that are prevalent in H1B workers the unemployment is around 2% even during the pandemic.

Also, to the point that they stay in the US forever: do you prefer these skilled professionals to leave for other countries making the US companies lose the competition. You’re mistaken to think those jobs will be filled by Americans, there’s not enough qualified Americans in these fields. The companies will outsource therefore helping other economies.

However, to somewhat support your point, the diversity lottery should be abolished completely, now you’re talking 55k people coming to the US annually, most of them don’t have high end skilled professions and often become a burden to American tax payers. These 55k green cards should be offered to the masters and PhD graduates of American universities which will ensure it’s given to skilled professionals and will spark international enrollment to the US universities creating revenue

Source : I am a team lead in a software development department in a big company, directly involved in hiring process

You're points are valid, but you must admit there is some shady crap going on in the software industry.

It's a well known fact that Microsoft hires foreign engineers because they have lower turnover due to having the Visa hanging over their heads. I know many foreign engineers and they don't make nearly as much $$ as their American counterparts--mostly because they can't be easily poached by another big company, so they don't have to pay them as much.

Also, huge companies like Microsoft and Apple have created an offshore hiring apparatus to fill positions that is so effective that domestic applicants don't even have a chance to apply for the job before it's filled.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

How do you know there are that many qualified Americans? People who defend it usually say there is a skill gap and they have trouble filling in positions

You should look into the dubious STEM shortage.
https://wordpress.jmcgowan.com/wp/m...-shortage-claims-in-us-news-and-world-report/

 

[djacobox372]

Most Americans would be SHOCKED to visit a local park near the Microsoft Campus, it's like your in Mumbai.