Opinion H1-B Visas. How do we fix this mess?

[Russky]

contract work at an extremely low rate of $45-60 per hour

Which equals to miserable $90,000-$120,000/year. Certainly no American would move a finger for this money and they have to import the workforce, lol.

 

[milkmandanl]

Which equals to miserable $90,000-$120,000/year. Certainly no American would move a finger for this money and they have to import the workforce, lol.

Yep.... profit over employing us citizens or gc holders

 

[Crim]

Indian IT workers are renown for cheating during college and certifications. I moderate a tech forum, and sit as a Lead Network Engineer. The vast majority of new users who post dumps or request dumps overwhelmingly are from India. These people would be exposed hard with basic questions in a technical interview.

In addition, when I used to be a software developer over a decade ago, they would take requirements and completely botch them. I am uncertain if this was due to English incomprehension, or once again, incompetence.

 

[panamaican]

No offense taken....and now my turn...with all due respect...yes, it is about H1B’s and how they’ve been and are being abused in the IT field...we can and should do what we can to prevent this from continuing....dont miss the big picture Pan...it’s all about making money w/o having to shed a tear over the consequences...and it’s been going on in this country since it’s inception...I worked for a Tech company in the 80’s That moved it’s manufacturing off shore...100’s of working class poor of all races and ethnicities Laid off...so the company could make a profit to appease shareholders...it really is the best and worst sides of capitalism...

This thread is about H1-Bs but your issue about the mills is no different from what's going on in every industry. That is the big picture. The small picture is thinking about the single visa issue while missing the larger structural issues in the economy.

 

[ViD]

Indian IT workers are renown for cheating during college and certifications. I moderate a tech forum, and sit as a Lead Network Engineer. The vast majority of new users who post dumps or request dumps overwhelmingly are from India. These people would be exposed hard with basic questions in a technical interview.

In addition, when I used to be a software developer over a decade ago, they would take requirements and completely botch them. I am uncertain if this was due to English incomprehension, or once again, incompetence.

We’ve had a lot of Indian interviews and even some quite ridiculous ones where you could hear them googling the answer to a question pretending not to understand, asking to repeat etc; there have been brilliant Indian candidates as well though. I’d say around 5-10%.

 

[milkmandanl]

This thread is about H1-Bs but your issue about the mills is no different from what's going on in every industry. That is the big picture. The small picture is thinking about the single visa issue while missing the larger structural issues in the economy.

Correct.

To be clear, ..I am confused as why you seem against solving this specific issue. Perhaps, I’m misunderstanding your posts and intent... it seemed like your intent was “no biggie, IT happens elsewhere so why fix it”...I had the impression that you fought/rooted for the underdog.

 

[panamaican]

Correct.

To be clear, ..I am confused as why you seem against solving this specific issue. Perhaps, I’m misunderstanding your posts and intent... it seemed like your intent was “no biggie, IT happens elsewhere so why fix it”...I had the impression that you fought/rooted for the underdog.

Because I don't think it is an issue.

It isn't a thing to be "fixed". If you want to "fix" something, you fix the overall structural issues that impact the value of contract workers vs. employees, the overall issues of wages and how that intersects with changes in what we call "work", you don't "fix" H1-Bs.

To expand a little on the previous point. How we define "work" is outdated. So our laws and regulation surrounding work are also at risk of being outdated. This issue is why you have H1-B mills, if you fix issue with how work is defined and regulated then you fix the H1-B issue at the same time. Something that I'm watching is how California is handling their gig economy regulations.

 

[PolishHeadlock2]

This is pretty interesting.

 

[HappyCamper]

Remember when Disney replaced 250 workers with H1Bs and those employees had to train the H1Bs? Lol fuck those American employees, they didn’t need to make a life for themselves and their families apparently.

'Fuck Americans' might as well be the Democrat slogan at this point.

 

[Cooz]

'Fuck Americans' might as well be the Democrat slogan at this point.

May want to check yourself. This is no way a "democrat" versus "republican" issue.

Big business (Republicans) favor these types of visas.

 

[Cooz]

This thread is about H1-Bs but your issue about the mills is no different from what's going on in every industry. That is the big picture. The small picture is thinking about the single visa issue while missing the larger structural issues in the economy.

I don't think you are that familiar with the IT industry (the industry that is impacted the most), hence your position that this is not a problem.

If something is not being effectively used and has unintended consequences on the very industry it was supposed to help, then it needs to be fixed.

There is direct impact (lower wages, quality of work, etc.) and less direct impact of which examples were given by other posters.

I can't tell if you are stating that "that's how the world turns" and we'll just continue or whether you're stating that the private industry will self regulate.

And if your position is that the infusion of skilled professionals is necessary, then the current program is STILL not doing that effectively.

 

[HappyCamper]

May want to check yourself. This is no way a "democrat" versus "republican" issue.

Big business (Republicans) favor these types of visas.

Both sides favor it for different reasons.

 

[Cooz]

Both sides favor it for different reasons.

What are those reasons for each side in your opinion?

 

[panamaican]

I don't think you are that familiar with the IT industry (the industry that is impacted the most), hence your position that this is not a problem.

If something is not being effectively used and has unintended consequences on the very industry it was supposed to help, then it needs to be fixed.

There is direct impact (lower wages, quality of work, etc.) and less direct impact of which examples were given by other posters.

I can't tell if you are stating that "that's how the world turns" and we'll just continue or whether you're stating that the private industry will self regulate.

And if your position is that the infusion of skilled professionals is necessary, then the current program is STILL not doing that effectively.

I understand the issue well enough. When you're talking about H1-B subcontractors being paid less, my response is that it is commonplace is all of the industries that have increased their use of subs.

I wrote an entire other post about the claim that it's not being effectively used and has unintended consequences and how that claim isn't really valid. The businesses are using it as intended. The visa holders are using it as intended. Those are the 2 groups covered by the program and they both seem to using the program effectively for their needs. Your complaint is about the domestic workers, but they were always going to be negatively impacted by the existence of this program, that's not an unintended consequence.

If the claim is "the increased use of independent contractors are undercutting employee wages", that's a reasonable position to argue and one I would agree with. If the argument is "H1-B's specifically need to be revamped because they're undercutting domestic labor wages," that's not a position I would agree with. It's missing the forest for the trees.

It's not H1-Bs that are hurting domestic labor in the IT. It's the increased use of independent subcontractors that are hurting employee wages across all industries, which includes IT. The form of the independent contractors, whether it is through these H1-B mills or through something like Uber or contract attorneys or contract accountants, doesn't matter. There is a structural shift going on in the form of employment and constricting one's approach to the issue to a narrow facet of a single industry really, really misses the point.

 

[milkmandanl]

I understand the issue well enough. When you're talking about H1-B subcontractors being paid less, my response is that it is commonplace is all of the industries that have increased their use of subs.

I wrote an entire other post about the claim that it's not being effectively used and has unintended consequences and how that claim isn't really valid. The businesses are using it as intended. The visa holders are using it as intended. Those are the 2 groups covered by the program and they both seem to using the program effectively for their needs. Your complaint is about the domestic workers, but they were always going to be negatively impacted by the existence of this program, that's not an unintended consequence.

If the claim is "the increased use of independent contractors are undercutting employee wages", that's a reasonable position to argue and one I would agree with. If the argument is "H1-B's specifically need to be revamped because they're undercutting domestic labor wages," that's not a position I would agree with. It's missing the forest for the trees.

It's not H1-Bs that are hurting domestic labor in the IT. It's the increased use of independent subcontractors that are hurting employee wages across all industries, which includes IT. The form of the independent contractors, whether it is through these H1-B mills or through something like Uber or contract attorneys or contract accountants, doesn't matter. There is a structural shift going on in the form of employment and constricting one's approach to the issue to a narrow facet of a single industry really, really misses the point.

structural shifts rarely happen in a sweeping motion. You get that motion started by fixing parts of the problem. In the tech industry H1B usage is being abused and keeping wages down and using labor that can be found in the US. The intent of f H1B’s does not match the results Of what we are seeing In the IT industry

there is no need to WAIT until a solution is created for all contractors when there is a solution that would directly affect the largest abusers and the industry Under abuse. Let’s fix the H1B issue it IT and see if a similar solution can be used for the larger “contract worker” problem while we wait around for nation wide redefinition of what work means today.

 

[panamaican]

structural shifts rarely happen in a sweeping motion. You get that motion started by fixing parts of the problem. In the tech industry H1B usage is being abused and keeping wages down and using labor that can be found in the US. The intent of f H1B’s does not match the results Of what we are seeing In the IT industry

there is no need to WAIT until a solution is created for all contractors when there is a solution that would directly affect the largest abusers and the industry Under abuse. Let’s fix the H1B issue it IT and see if a similar solution can be used for the larger “contract worker” problem while we wait around for nation wide redefinition of what work means today.

And here is where I disagree with you. The situation with independent contractors is a straight forward fix related to how those types of workers are defined and categorized relative to employees. You can fix the entire system at a single point which is far better governance than fixing one aspect of one industry, H1-Bs, while leaving every other facet of the problem unresolved. Fixing each subsection of each industry separately means a hodge podge of rules and regulations that create bad law.

I understand why you would want to prioritze the aspect of the issue that relates to your area of work but that's exactly where bad law comes from. When you can fix a classification issue across industries in one step but instead people say "Just fix my stuff", it ends up far worse in the long run.

And I want to point out the difference in what we're saying here. I'm saying "I recognzie your problem, it's similar to other problems and we can fix all of them at once." You're saying "I recognize my problem, the similarity to other problems but we should only fix my problem right now, even if there's a way to do them all at once."

 

[Drain Bamage]

If you hire an H1b you're hiring an unqualified person. No if and or buts about it.

I promise any H1b hire won't pass the most simple technical test

They for the most part had to be handheld through their job at my old office that had a lot of them.

They could never do anything alone. What would be 1-on-1 conversations became 1-on-2 conversations because they always had to be accompanied, lest the specifics of what being discussed be lost. Also causing their "babysitter" to lose productivity on their own tasks.

This is in Seattle.

 

[Russky]

You will never hear me say I don't understand something.

American managers love that.
This is cultural thing, you are not supposed to tell your manager that you cannot do something. It is disrespectful to your manager. Your manager knows better if there is anyone more suitable for this job or not.
I worked in a group with 15 other engineers, all from India. Sometimes it was challenge for our manager (also from India) to find the right guy for the job. I learned a lot from that manager, really great guy.

 

[Cooz]

American managers love that.
This is cultural thing, you are not supposed to tell your manager that you cannot do something. It is disrespectful to your manager. Your manager knows better if there is anyone more suitable for this job or not.
I worked in a group with 15 other engineers, all from India. Sometimes it was challenge for our manager (also from India) to find the right guy for the job. I learned a lot from that manager, really great guy.

I don’t want quote the other poster, as his fan fiction adds nothing to the conversation.

I wish I could delete other peoples posts in my own thread.

 

[Russky]

I don’t want quote the other poster, as his fan fiction adds nothing to the conversation.

I do not agree. This is an illustration of the culture gap and things you have to deal with when you bring people with different culture to your country en masse.