Opinion H1-B Visas. How do we fix this mess?

[Cooz]

Provide it here. You claimed (1) the US doesn't produce enough people capable of holding STEM jobs (2) because the US doesn't fund public education. Back up both claims.

We can move past his point as it doesn't address how to fix the current rules.

 

[Cooz]

Are the H1B’s hired directly by your company and work for your company or do you use an H1B company like TCS, Cognizant, Mindtree? It is a fact that these H1B mill company’s spam applications and theN get granted the VAsT majority of the H1B’s...they also make a shit ton of money going to corporations that are not pure tech companies (finance, health care, travel industries) and offering up flat rates of up to 25% less than what the companies Are currently paying their employees with an end results of employees which are US citizens being let go...make no mistake about it...US citizens have, are and will continue to lose their jobs to H1B “mill shop” companies due to their ability to provide contracted work at a very low price point because they will blend in off shore rates.

Highlighting yet another set of great points. 100% accurate about the application spam going to a handful of big companies.

 

[Cooz]

Which job you wanted to get and were not able to because of the **** H1B immigrants?

I've seen it all.

I was consulting for a company and cuts had to be made to the team. A very talented person was let go due to seniority. He was the last one in first one out. Under ordinary circumstances it's not the worst approach to take, but if the criteria is that you can only resort to H1B if you cannot find local talent, then that decision broke the spirit of the rule.

I've interviewed candidates and no special consideration was given to the visa status. I know it sounds odd and it actually sounds fair. But that was not the intent of the H1B program. A US citizen should be given GREATER consideration than a H1B visa holder.

Another poster mentioned that recruitment gets infiltrated. It's true. Bribes are a thing as is social engineering. It's not even considered a bribe, just a way of doing business. I was once told "if things work out, not obligated, but please consider donating to a temple" and was given a card (things luckily didn't and I found a new gig on my own).

 

[Cooz]

So, the argument from the OP is that we get 130,000 qualified people into the labor pool and this is a bad thing?

The supposedly work-displaced Americans can bootstrap themselves up or so I'm told...

Okay, that last bit might have been too tongue in cheek for some. But if the economic model is working the way it's supposed to be working, and every time I mention the poor I'm told that the system is fine, then these Americans should be able to find work if they want it bad enough. And even if they can't find a job, they can go into business for themselves.

Unless, and this is a big one, what if the system doesn't work the way it's advertised for all Americans?

Bringing in 130,000 people with dubious qualifications into the labor pool is not the intent of H1B.

It's also not the intent that they will jump between work and student visas and game the system in any which way they can to stay. I'm not saying it's not admirable.

I'm stating that the program is abused and is not working as intended. If we need an injection of 260,000 then so be it. Write it up and update the law. But don't tell me some antiquated program is working as intended.

From 2017:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-h-1b-visas-have-been-abused-since-the-beginning/

In the 1980s, Bruce Morrison saw problems with temporary visas for workers. At the time, he was a Democratic Congressman from Connecticut, and he felt that visas granted under the H1 program — which was created in 1952 — were handed out too liberally. The program allowed entry for too many people who weren't vital to the U.S. economy, he argued.

In response, Morrison helped write the Immigration Act of 1990, which created the H-1B program. "The intent was clamp down on abuse and open the doors to truly exceptional people through a system when they become Americans," Morrison tells 60 Minutes. "And prevent the kind of abuse of the temporary visa system that existed before."

But this week on 60 Minutes, correspondent Bill Whitaker reports that the H-1B visa program has since been seriously abused, allowing companies to fire American workers and to bring in cheap foreign labor.

"I'm outraged," Morrison tells Whitaker on the broadcast, excerpted in the clip above. "The H-1B has been hijacked as the main highway to bring people from abroad and displace Americans."

 

[Ophydian]

So, the argument from the OP is that we get 130,000 qualified people into the labor pool and this is a bad thing?

The supposedly work-displaced Americans can bootstrap themselves up or so I'm told...

Okay, that last bit might have been too tongue in cheek for some. But if the economic model is working the way it's supposed to be working, and every time I mention the poor I'm told that the system is fine, then these Americans should be able to find work if they want it bad enough. And even if they can't find a job, they can go into business for themselves.

Unless, and this is a big one, what if the system doesn't work the way it's advertised for all Americans?

My favorite post of the year, right now.

 

[panamaican]

Bringing in 130,000 people with dubious qualifications into the labor pool is not the intent of H1B.

It's also not the intent that they will jump between work and student visas and game the system in any which way they can to stay. I'm not saying it's not admirable.

I'm stating that the program is abused and is not working as intended. If we need an injection of 260,000 then so be it. Write it up and update the law. But don't tell me some antiquated program is working as intended.

I know that you're saying that it's not working as intended. I'm disagreeing with you. I'm saying that it is working exactly as intended. We're getting more and more qualified workers to bolster our existing workforce.

People not liking it doesn't equate to abuse. The program was created to allow businesses more hiring flexibility. It was created to create work opportunities for foreign labor. Both groups are using the program as intended. When the program was created, there were going to be Americans who didn't get those jobs. Now, there are Americans who are not getting their jobs.

It's a much bigger road to "abuse" than simply "Foreign workers have caught up to American workers in several fields and now out compete them for entry level jobs thus forcing less talented Americans to fight for less attractive opportunities." Followed by the unanswered "We expect American businesses to overpay for domestic labor because we're too stupid to understand why labor was getting outsourced in the first place."

As for your original premise about how many are issued annually, the visas are temporary so even if we issue 65,000 every year...65,000 are expiring every year. So, what?

Right...your contentions about visa holders then staying in America. After working for 6 years, they have to apply for a green card or go back to their original country. They're working, they're paying taxes and enhancing American competitiveness. You haven't explained how holding down a job for 6+ years is an example of abuse, except in the questionable context that someone else didn't get their job. Which is true for every job.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Great point, and I remember you being in the industry (although you made some very dishonest claims about AI drones killing people ).

How to GROW talent at home is an entire other problem and I can't address that yet (although I'm making headway in that industry now).

How do we ensure that we're getting actual talent from overseas and that it's not suppressing the local market?

Strict evaluation periods? Should a company be required to post jobs being held by H1B holders and allow anyone to apply for them periodically?

I actually did not make dishonest claims, ARS Technica publication did and then retracted the part of the program being is usage.

The US is already getting great talent from top tier sources (Canada , west Europe, ect) in fact, 20-60% of stem grads (pending on the stream) from Canada's top 3 stem universities (Toronto, waterloo, UBC) venture to the states.

As far as domestic protocols the US can do, I would suggest starting with stricter enforcement of american first hiring policy, stronger parameters of foreign qualification's and a major push to encourage math, science and computing in grade and high school levels with maybe full tuition reimbursement for American stem grads who agree to stay and work in the US.

But big tech and finance is the last beacons of American excellence as far the global economy is concern, and that will require a skilled workforce that US citizens are not on pace to meet.

 

[ViD]

Bingo.

You just made one of my key arguments for how they lower wages. You are able to retain an H1B visa holder for a long time? Why is that? Because they place greater value on stability and are willing to make other sacrifices (quality of life, wages, etc.) in order to get past the 7+ year waiting period to become naturalized.

You are unable to keep qualified Americans because they apparently go to higher paying jobs. That means you are not willing to pay market value, unless your market is saturated with below market rate talent.

Now what do US citizens do that do not have mobility and are not able to just pack up and leave? They have to cave in to the local rates which are artificially low due to and external injection of talent.

This was never the intent of the H1B visa program.

My company is not located in an IT hotbed city or region so the pool of IT specialists is thin, especially American citizens. H1B hires get paid the above median salary for the IT professionals in the area we’re located,

 

[milkmandanl]

How do you know there are that many qualified Americans? People who defend it usually say there is a skill gap and they have trouble filling in positions

it has more to do with making money for large primarily Indian led companies. The vast majority of the visaS get granted to employees of companies that use H1B employees to do contract work at an extremely low rate of $45-60 per hour and they augment 5hat with an offshore rate of $15-25 hourly rate. Doing this allows the company using their contingent work force to NOT hire Americans for the job as it is WAY cheaper to use contractors instead of employees. These H1 B mills SPAM thousands of applications and end up getting the vast majority of the visa...it’s ALL about mak8ng a profit for both companies and as you know....reducing operating costs...is On lever to pull in “making a profit” 101.

 

[milkmandanl]

You're points are valid, but you must admit there is some shady crap going on in the software industry.

It's a well known fact that Microsoft hires foreign engineers because they have lower turnover due to having the Visa hanging over their heads. I know many foreign engineers and they don't make nearly as much $$ as their American counterparts--mostly because they can't be easily poached by another big company, so they don't have to pay them as much.

Also, huge companies like Microsoft and Apple have created an offshore hiring apparatus to fill positions that is so effective that domestic applicants don't even have a chance to apply for the job before it's filled.

*like

to add....an employee in tech will add an additional cost of 25%-40% to their salary thru something referred to a “fully loaded costs”...it includes healthcare, PTO (paid time off), holidays and other perks....but if you use a contractor then you don’t incur those costs...it is 100% a money play...

 

[milkmandanl]

I watched some videos of offices google has.

Crazy stuff

how do you know your at the google HQ? To many Indians and not enough chiefs.....running “insider joke”

 

[milkmandanl]

Many Indian managers would hire Indian engineers only. That's a part of the culture, and it killed one of the companies I worked for.

yep, a buddy of mine at a pure tech company said that they had diversity” trading that encouraged hiring someone that doesn’t look like you....also, often times try fluff up the job requirements with additional things like masters degrees being required....many H1Bs get masters while here to “qualify” for jobs from people who look like them...

 

[milkmandanl]

Dudes from Bangladesh, Pakistan and other shithole countries are much smarter than you americans lol. ( i wont even bring south Korea or Japan.. that would be too savage). Usa pays to bring wonderful minds to their territory so they can keep on thriving. It’s been like that for years. You don’t have people with the brain power to do what these malnourished, poor kids can. You simply cannot perform those jerbs at the speed and accuracy as them.

lol.....less than 1% of visa holders are above average workers much less brilliant minds...it’s 100% cheap labor for the IT industry...100% reducing operational costs to make a proft

 

[milkmandanl]

Triple Like.

I can't stress enough how spot on this post is. There is a clear need to attract and retain foreign talent. Why wouldn't anyone want that??

The current system has been abused and corrupted. It desperately needs to be revamped.

So there's been more stringent requirements implemented by this administration for proof of employment when renewing an H1B Visa.

They include taking photos of your work space and laptop. Not a joke. No badge/logo/dates newspaper required to be in the photo.
Even sherdog has more stringent standards when posters upload photos of themselves (often tim the form of the subject holding a banana).

If anything, this administration has made it more confusing for H1B visa holders to go through the process. It's done nothing address the problem, and quite frankly people with greater talent (and less desperation) are saying "eff it, not worth my time" and are leaving.

Double like...

I have a feeling you and I have similar experiences and knowledge in this space.

 

[C0NCH3TO]

lol.....less than 1% of visa holders are above average workers much less brilliant minds...it’s 100% cheap labor for the IT industry...100% reducing operational costs to make a proft

It’s at 60k yearly minimum for H1B workers. I have friends in the tech industry who are now citizens but came over with a H1B visa. NONE of them made 60k. I was the only broke motherfucker making 70k a year in ny lol. They easily passed 100k a year.

Congress is proposing a minimum of 130k salary for these guys. And If its a go, I would bet you that they will STILL be employed by us companies.

 

[milkmandanl]

So, the argument from the OP is that we get 130,000 qualified people into the labor pool and this is a bad thing?

The supposedly work-displaced Americans can bootstrap themselves up or so I'm told...

Okay, that last bit might have been too tongue in cheek for some. But if the economic model is working the way it's supposed to be working, and every time I mention the poor I'm told that the system is fine, then these Americans should be able to find work if they want it bad enough. And even if they can't find a job, they can go into business for themselves.

Unless, and this is a big one, what if the system doesn't work the way it's advertised for all Americans?

A direct side affect of the way H1B process is abused by large H1B mills and their Work model of providing labor for way less than hiring an employee...is Americans (which include recent graduates, from poor and minority background) are not getting those jobs. It is even more telling in areas where minorities thrive especially when they have a college degree...don’t get me wrong, what is being done by both the H1B mills and the companies that use them is both legal and smart due to lower costs which equals profit or at worse a break even point....it’s about making MONEY at the sacrifice of American jobs Pan!....it’s no different than when we decided to go offshore for manufacturing or using automation in the auto industry...well, imagino there are some differences but the foundational reasons are the same $$$$$$$$

Yes, the paperwork is a nightmare. Having said that, would you say some of that has to do with how confusing it is?

Also, a lot of the vendors that sponsor these visas have staff to churn that paperwork out.

I think people miss the Key fact that the vast majority Of these visas are obtained by H1B mills who make a shit ton of money...

 

[milkmandanl]

Bringing in 130,000 people with dubious qualifications into the labor pool is not the intent of H1B.

It's also not the intent that they will jump between work and student visas and game the system in any which way they can to stay. I'm not saying it's not admirable.

I'm stating that the program is abused and is not working as intended. If we need an injection of 260,000 then so be it. Write it up and update the law. But don't tell me some antiquated program is working as intended.

From 2017:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-h-1b-visas-have-been-abused-since-the-beginning/

Insert MF he’s right you know gif

 

[milkmandanl]

It’s at 60k yearly minimum for H1B workers. I have friends in the tech industry who are now citizens but came over with a H1B visa. NONE of them made 60k. I was the only broke motherfucker making 70k a year in ny lol. They easily passed 100k a year.

Congress is proposing a minimum of 130k salary for these guys. And If its a go, I would bet you that they will STILL be employed by us companies.

It’s crazy how much H1B’s can make in tech....especially the ones contracted through a H1B mill...Contractors in general is a good idea BUT the H1B mills make it tough for domestic, local and small contracting companies to survive....it’s all about the money...capitalism at ts best and worst

making $130K a minimum will help BUT the big H1B companies will just quote you a higher offshore mix to offset their cost...additionally, in some areas $130K is within the salary range of a jr developer

 

[panamaican]

A direct side affect of the way H1B process is abused by large H1B mills and their Work model of providing labor for way less than hiring an employee...is Americans (which include recent graduates, from poor and minority background) are not getting those jobs. It is even more telling in areas where minorities thrive especially when they have a college degree...don’t get me wrong, what is being done by both the H1B mills and the companies that use them is both legal and smart due to lower costs which equals profit or at worse a break even point....it’s about making MONEY at the sacrifice of American jobs Pan!....it’s no different than when we decided to go offshore for manufacturing or using automation in the auto industry...well, imagino there are some differences but the foundational reasons are the same $$$$$$$$

I'm aware of the H1-B mills. No offense but it's a meaningless issue in the larger context of the economy.

Every industry has moved aggressively towards contractors instead of hiring employees. Accounting, law, IT, etc. It has nothing to do with H1-Bs and everything to do with the ease of outsourcing white collar work thanks to technological improvements.

Pointing the finger at H1-B visas holders resembles the age-old habit of targeting outsiders for what are internal changes. Uber destroyed the taxi business by utilizing contractors instead of employees (amongst other reasons). Contract attorneys have run rampant through the legal field shrinking the market for new hires and depressing salaries. Accounting has seen similar effects. When I need to hire a tech guy for something, I outsource to a guy in Moldovia, lol (seriously). He's pennies on the dollar cheaper than hiring an American.

We could go industry by industry and see a significant uptick in the amount of contractor outsourcing in many of them. It's not H1-B mills who are causing this and targeting that area ends of missing the bigger issue.

 

[milkmandanl]

I'm aware of the H1-B mills. No offense but it's a meaningless issue in the larger context of the economy.

Every industry has moved aggressively towards contractors instead of hiring employees. Accounting, law, IT, etc. It has nothing to do with H1-Bs and everything to do with the ease of outsourcing white collar work thanks to technological improvements.

Pointing the finger at H1-B visas holders resembles the age-old habit of targeting outsiders for what are internal changes. Uber destroyed the taxi business by utilizing contractors instead of employees (amongst other reasons). Contract attorneys have run rampant through the legal field shrinking the market for new hires and depressing salaries. Accounting has seen similar effects. When I need to hire a tech guy for something, I outsource to a guy in Moldovia, lol (seriously). He's pennies on the dollar cheaper than hiring an American.

We could go industry by industry and see a significant uptick in the amount of contractor outsourcing in many of them. It's not H1-B mills who are causing this and targeting that area ends of missing the bigger issue.

No offense taken....and now my turn...with all due respect...yes, it is about H1B’s and how they’ve been and are being abused in the IT field...we can and should do what we can to prevent this from continuing....dont miss the big picture Pan...it’s all about making money w/o having to shed a tear over the consequences...and it’s been going on in this country since it’s inception...I worked for a Tech company in the 80’s That moved it’s manufacturing off shore...100’s of working class poor of all races and ethnicities Laid off...so the company could make a profit to appease shareholders...it really is the best and worst sides of capitalism...