why is western culture becoming so shameless?

[tramendous]

Our legal system, in essence, predates the christianization of the west and its still there after the secularization of the west.

Id say that our laws have more basis in christian west than pre christian. I'd also argue that the pre christian west was religious not secular.

 

[Rod1]

Id say that our laws have more basis in christian west than pre christian. I'd also argue that the pre christian west was religious not secular.

1.- I disagree, even christian legalists were heavily influenced by roman law tradition and less by middle-eastern legal tradition.

2.- So? not all religious are prude, ever heard of Bacchanalia?

 

[tramendous]

It is not a very new concept, unless you want to argue that 2000 years ago is a long time, because on the scale of human existence on this Earth 2000 years is not very long. The concept has changed however from positive liberty to negative liberty.

And this idea of decadence in the present and a distant past where people were morally righteous is as old as civilization. Maybe it's true that with progress, decadence ensues. Look at any roman annals or histories, they're always saying how people were good in the past and now everyone is soft and immoral.

And they ended up being right over time. Ibn khaldun noted that rich and prosperous societies always succumb to corruption and weakness and then are taken over by a more disciplined and hard people (i.e. barbarians/nomads) who then over generations turn into the same thing and get overthrown. Now in his time he was mostly talking about the ruling class i.e. kings/nobles but i think over time, this effects the common person more and more.

I don't think the modern philosophy of people is anchored in anything. By their own logic, if society decides to degenerate they will simply go along with it. lest any criticism of it results in them being labelled the new 'old people'

 

[tramendous]

1.- I disagree, even christian legalists were heavily influenced by roman law tradition and less by middle-eastern legal tradition.

2.- So? not all religious are prude, ever heard of Bacchanalia?

Of course christian law had some basis in roman law but that doesnt change the fact that modern western law is more rooted in christian law than roman.

The problem is that the west is continously sabotaging its own moral basis. They'll be fucking their own sisters soon and only complain when a condom isnt used. #Incest rights matter.

 

[Rod1]

Of course christian law had some basis in roman law but that doesnt change the fact that modern western law is more rooted in christian law than roman.

The problem is that the west is continously sabotaging its own moral basis. They'll be fucking their own sisters soon and only complain when a condom isnt used. #Incest rights matter.

1.- False, christianity represented a regression of law as the authority changed from the people into the divine rights of kings.

2.- Westermarck effect.

 

[tramendous]

1.- False, christianity represented a regression of law as the authority changed from the people into the divine rights of kings.

2.- Westermarck effect.

As oppose to it residing with some emperor demanding to be worshipped as a god himself? The regression of law was due to barbarians inheriting a system they didn't know how to maintain ir run by force of arms.

And since when has the westermarck effect completely eliminated incest? We wouldn't need laws to stop it. What about relatives who have not lived together?

 

[Rod1]

As oppose to it residing with some emperor demanding to be worshipped as a god himself? The regression of law was due to barbarians inheriting a system they didn't know how to maintain ir run by force of arms.

And since when has the westermarck effect completely eliminated incest? We wouldn't need laws to stop it. What about relatives who have not lived together?

1.- The emperor never demanded to be worshipped as a god.

2.- Westermack effect does stops incest for being such a big problem in the first place, thats why the most inbred populations in the world coincidentally tend to be some of the most religious.

 

[tramendous]

1.- The emperor never demanded to be worshipped as a god.

2.- Westermack effect does stops incest for being such a big problem in the first place, thats why the most inbred populations in the world coincidentally tend to be some of the most religious.

The westermack effect works most of the time just as how most of the time people arent born gay. Its a genetic advantage. That doesn't stop people though as people felt it was necessary to pass laws to outlaw it.

Caligula

 

[Rod1]

The westermack effect works most of the time just as how most of the time people arent born gay. Its a genetic advantage. That doesn't stop people though as people felt it was necessary to pass laws to outlaw it.

Caligula

The one that ruled for 3 years before being assassinated. He never got his way and became worshipped as god.

 

[tramendous]

The one that ruled for 3 years before being assassinated. He never got his way and became worshipped as god.

Seriously man. The deification and cult worship is basic knowledge here. Youre acting like power went from the people to the kings when it really went from one dude in robes to another.

 

[DoomPatrol]

I just don't understand why people are so ashamed of sexuality. It's something that we all do and enjoy and it's completely natural. Women shouldn't be ashamed of their bodies and neither should men. I'm not saying we should be jerking off on each others desks, but there's nothing wrong with consenting adults having fun. If you think that's bad, then you're probably some religious loser and I don't care what you think. You can have fun and be responsible. If more people enjoyed things like sex and partying, maybe we'd have less assholes in this world.

And of course, old people are always complaining about the younger crowd and how they are just ruining society. That's just you being an old, grumpy bitch. The world is safer and educated than it's ever been in history. You're insane if you think our world is getting worse because it's not. It's getting better. The people who are holding it back are the religious people who think we should keep every pregnancy, not provide condoms to young adults, and think women should be ashamed of their bodies.

With all the wars, famine and hate in this world, it takes a real lunatic to think that tits and ass are the problem.

 

[Rod1]

Seriously man. The deification and cult worship is basic knowledge here. Youre acting like power went from the people to the kings when it really went from one dude in robes to another.

Post-mortem deification of emperors didnt changed the fact that classical rome was the place where the modern legal system was created. They had absolute veto power but the judiciary carried the actual judging for the most part, they were also nominally part of the republic.

 

[panamaican]

Im not over 35. Im not even 30. I think maybe its because i was raised in a more traditional family. Where its not okay for a girl to flash her tits at strangers.

Maybe those people have a point. I dont think 1940s girls were getting half naked and drunk with guys ditching marriage considered alpha. But of course those societies had their own issues. Im honestly really worried about raising a girl in a society like this.

Yeah they were. It just wasn't as accessible to the people who weren't involved.

 

[panamaican]

This is what society has always been. It has not ramped up or tapered down. Man is a hedonist.

What has changed is the ability of a central authority to corral men towards a single goal. In the past, religion played this role. Whether it was the deification of leaders or a more nebulous god, man's hedonism was often controlled and leveraged my playing towards a single moral authority.

That has changed and now there are multiple moral authorities with multiple variations on what's acceptable.

Blame those who abused power and abdicated the moral high ground. Blame those who couched their self-centered desires behind a thin veil of religion. Or defend immoral actions as their birthright or "not their problem".

Individual man is a hedonist. It is only collective man who wants to impart some form of order on others.

 

[luckyshot]

TS, the problem you describe is not hedonism, it is lack of introspection and self-awareness.

If people were a little more intelligent and reflective in their hedonism, they would end up behaving in ways that are, for the most part, pretty conventional.

Long term depravity doesn't end up leading to a whole lot of pleasure. Ask a meth head.

"You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think."

 

[greedopl]

Ive felt this for a lot longer than ive known it. There is something that i think we we can all feel amiss in society today but i think most are afraid to admit it. Its that we are becoming hedonists to the point of self sabotage.

Where as in the past i think there was an inherent desire of the western man and woman to improve society and his/her surroundings, today's individual seems to be all about self satisfaction. Its spread to many things to the point of turning them into parodies of themselves such as feminism and social justice.

I think today's culture even celebrates its shamelessness. Take for example a woman being slutty. In basically any society that has its head on straight, this would be a vice and reprehensible. Yet in an almost orwellian way, the notion of shaming someone for this behavior is considered reprehensible. I.e. 'slut shaming'. Moreover a woman devoting herself to motherhood is considered weak, submissive and out of date.

This isn't just women either. Men have also become shameless hedonists. In response to the new womyn, They are no longer interested in getting married and raising a family but 'going their own way' (mgtow) and devoting themselves to self indulgent behavior and labelling it 'alpha' to make themselves feel better about their self indulgence. The extremists even indoctrinate themselves to believe that women are inherently like this.

This hit me really hard the other day. Weirdest day ever. I was out with friends and taking a break from the party, we went to a nearby convenience store. A lot of people seemed to have had the same idea from the party so when we got inside, it was filled with drunks and half naked drunk bitches. The clerk starts mouthing off in mandarin and my chinese friend starts laughing at everything the guys saying. He translates for us: "stupid fucking lunatics with no class. their dumb slut whores who will raise other pieces of shit and more whores."

Later on when we sat down to eat, we had a convo about trans genders and i mentioned them about a guy who abandoned his wife and kids because he identified as a 6 year old girl and got adopted by another family. My closest friends were just shocked at the story but these other dudes and girls from the party listening basically all concluded it was OK because it was his body and it had no effect on them. The guy's hedonism was all that mattered.

The entire ethos for right and wrong seems to have become 'do what thou wilt, so long as it doesnt stop me from doing what i want to do'. Basically if a dude has consensual incest sex, these people will shrug and say: as long as they wore a condom, good for them.

i dont know. Maybe someone can explain this elephant in the room better.

TLDR: we are becoming decadent

Why didn't you stay in the place of your origin if you don't like western culture?
Jokes aside,
you're right, something bad is happening. But it does not mean allahu is the golden way

 

[greedopl]

That started a long time ago. All from living comfortable lives where we don't give all excess to the poor, to abolishing slavery and capital punishment, allowed religious freedom, etc. Our entire society is mostly based on secular philosophy and when looking at things we live more according to the Satanic Bible than the Christian one. And that statement definitely includes most Christians.

This.
First time I agree with cap. sweden.

 

[the muntjac]

I've felt the same way about dogs too. They're always wanting my food, a scratch on the back, and to sleep on my bed without actually accomplishing anything. Such animals.

 

[tramendous]

Why didn't you stay in the place of your origin if you don't like western culture?
Jokes aside,
you're right, something bad is happening. But it does not mean allahu is the golden way

I didn't really have a choice to stay or leave since i was a toddler but my parents left because of civil war and the country was collapsing. Not because they didn't like their culture. At first they would speak about returning when things settle down and return as they were before the civil war but it became more and more evident that that wasn't going to happen in their life time or perhaps even in that of mine. I on the other hand grew up in Canadian society raised by parents who were moderate and highly educated Afghans.

 

[touchedbyjab]

Individual man is a hedonist. It is only collective man who wants to impart some form of order on others.

Interesting post, of which I agree but think of it in slightly different terms of which you may or may not agree with. Jordan Peterson inspired.

Humans are animals at our core: Chaotic, hedonistic organisms carrying out a Darwinian mission of survival and reproduction, each with our own subjective experiences.

Humans like any other mammals are social creatures. Respect for the individual can be seen in other species of animals; a dominant wolf will spare the life of a lesser if he exposes his neck. This is a very basic form of order within a dominance hierarchy. This is an objective system, which respects the subjective. Order (collective) respecting the individual (subject.)

If a Chimp leader becomes too tyrannical and starts killing off members of their group, lesser chimps with a stronger bond will attack it and take over; order and respect is put above an individual's subjective hedonism.

When many subjects (individuals) become a group, order arises organically; it's built into our core programming.

The point you bring up is that order comes in different forms: tyrannical leaders, religious kings, false prophets, and men who claim divinity, and religion. Each presents its own set of problems but the order is fair, and protects the individual, and gives our subjective experiences some form of order and protection, it will stand the test of time in an objectively verifiable manner.

I think for all it's faults, religion brings a bit of order in an uncertain and chaotic world. It has brought many people together and is a complex form of the human subjective experience.

God could be seen as the ultimate order; a perfect order unattainable by an imperfect subject like humans. A guide to follow, instead of persueing our own hedonistic, chaotic Darwinian solo-mission or the order of a tryrannical leader who is but a fellow subjective hedonist.