why is western culture becoming so shameless?

[panamaican]

I don't think crime has decreased, and you are missing a piece of that puzzle- the community used to enforce the law on its own. A crowd assembled in any American town could and often did tar and feather, or lynch, perpetrators. Any watcher a witness, any group of citizens a law enforcement body. More effective (and messy) than modern policing.

I didn't say crime decreased. I said our ability to catch criminals increased. I didn't miss community enforcement either. I specifically stated that the ability to identify the criminal was far more difficult in the past. So hedonism went unpunished far more often.

A crowd could certainly do all sorts of things but that doesn't mean the crowd actually determined that it was being applied to the right person. Because absent witnesses, the crowd is just guessing.

And hedonism that isn't seen doesn't get punished at all. Extramarital affairs in the woods aren't seen by anyone. Killing a man along the route between villages aren't seen by anyone. Beating your spouse wasn't a crime. Violence was a far more accepted response to social insults.

We criminalize more things than before. We have more ability to identify criminals than before. You seem to be applying a version of the past that doesn't take into account just how little "crowds" had access to when identifying criminals, let alone punishing them. Also you might be mischaracterizing social norms regarding violence, both in and outside of the home.

 

[lfd0311]

No my grandparents lived in a different world. Of course people idealize it too but although human nature might not be different, how it manifests in society is not the same throughout the ages.

Our Grandparents like to give off the impression that they were different and that the world they lived in was different. My Grandparents were good Catholic people. My Grandmother hasn't missed Mass her entire life. They've attended the same Church and sat in the same pew for 60 some years.

I remember hearing stories of my Grandfather fighting in the Pacific during WWII, and every now and then catching my Grandma saying something about remembering when that happened and being in Middle School at the time abd thinking that was odd and asking about it, and how the subject would be quickly changed. Only later when I was an adult would I come to learn that it was the not so quiet family secret that my Grandpa was 32 and my Grandma 19 when she got pregnant, and they weren't married. They were married for 45 years, had 5 children together, and my Grandmother to this day will still get all flustered when it is suggested that in all that time she might have once found my Grandfather attractive, or seen him naked. The Public face put on things might have changed, but not human behavior.

 

[tramendous]

Our Grandparents like to give off the impression that they were different and that the world they lived in was different. My Grandparents were good Catholic people. My Grandmother hasn't missed Mass her entire life. They've attended the same Church and sat in the same pew for 60 some years.

I remember hearing stories of my Grandfather fighting in the Pacific during WWII, and every now and then catching my Grandma saying something about remembering when that happened and being in Middle School at the time abd thinking that was odd and asking about it, and how the subject would be quickly changed. Only later when I was an adult would I come to learn that it was the not so quiet family secret that my Grandpa was 32 and my Grandma 19 when she got pregnant, and they weren't married. They were married for 45 years, had 5 children together, and my Grandmother to this day will still get all flustered when it is suggested that in all that time she might have once found my Grandfather attractive, or seen him naked. The Public face put on things might have changed, but not human behavior.

Here is the thing. Your grandparents dont like to talk about it because having a kid out of wedlock wasn't the way things are done. It would never be an issue had they lived in the present.

You want to take this to 'human behavior' but thats a much broader topic that covers everything from the cro magnon, aztec human sacrifice, the pyramids, jesus, to einstein and stephen hawking etc. Its an interesting topic but i do think its off topic. If you want to start a thread that the behavior of modern germans to germans in ww2 and afghans today and afghans in 40 years ago is the same, i'll be there.

 

[lfd0311]

Here is the thing. Your grandparents dont like to talk about it because having a kid out of wedlock wasn't the way things are done. It would never be an issue had they lived in the present.

You want to take this to 'human behavior' but thats a much broader topic that covers everything from the cro magnon, aztec human sacrifice, the pyramids, jesus, to einstein and stephen hawking etc. Its an interesting topic but i do think its off topic. If you want to start a thread that the behavior of modern germans to germans in ww2 and afghans today and afghans in 40 years ago is the same, i'll be there.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. It's human nature to want to rub up against members of the opposite sex. It always has been and it always will be. 2000 years of Christianity hasn't changed that, and that is my point.

 

[TheSherBro]

Ive felt this for a lot longer than ive known it. There is something that i think we we can all feel amiss in society today but i think most are afraid to admit it. Its that we are becoming hedonists to the point of self sabotage.

Where as in the past i think there was an inherent desire of the western man and woman to improve society and his/her surroundings, today's individual seems to be all about self satisfaction. Its spread to many things to the point of turning them into parodies of themselves such as feminism and social justice.

I think today's culture even celebrates its shamelessness. Take for example a woman being slutty. In basically any society that has its head on straight, this would be a vice and reprehensible. Yet in an almost orwellian way, the notion of shaming someone for this behavior is considered reprehensible. I.e. 'slut shaming'. Moreover a woman devoting herself to motherhood is considered weak, submissive and out of date.

This isn't just women either. Men have also become shameless hedonists. In response to the new womyn, They are no longer interested in getting married and raising a family but 'going their own way' (mgtow) and devoting themselves to self indulgent behavior and labelling it 'alpha' to make themselves feel better about their self indulgence. The extremists even indoctrinate themselves to believe that women are inherently like this.

This hit me really hard the other day. Weirdest day ever. I was out with friends and taking a break from the party, we went to a nearby convenience store. A lot of people seemed to have had the same idea from the party so when we got inside, it was filled with drunks and half naked drunk bitches. The clerk starts mouthing off in mandarin and my chinese friend starts laughing at everything the guys saying. He translates for us: "stupid fucking lunatics with no class. their dumb slut whores who will raise other pieces of shit and more whores."

Later on when we sat down to eat, we had a convo about trans genders and i mentioned them about a guy who abandoned his wife and kids because he identified as a 6 year old girl and got adopted by another family. My closest friends were just shocked at the story but these other dudes and girls from the party listening basically all concluded it was OK because it was his body and it had no effect on them. The guy's hedonism was all that mattered.

The entire ethos for right and wrong seems to have become 'do what thou wilt, so long as it doesnt stop me from doing what i want to do'. Basically if a dude has consensual incest sex, these people will shrug and say: as long as they wore a condom, good for them.

i dont know. Maybe someone can explain this elephant in the room better.

TLDR: we are becoming decadent

Who cares if women are slutty? That means we as men get more sex. Sexually liberated women also means more chances of MFF threesome (women tend to have more bi-sexual tendencies). So WTH are you complaining about? Don't ruin it for the rest of us. A liberated society benefits men the most.

Sounds like you encountered a bunch of scantily clad women drunk late out at night. OMG... society is 4ever ruined! Get over yourself. Calm down and enjoy the view homie. If they were being loud and obnoxious... it doesn't matter if they are women or men, that shit is completely irrelevant. Drunk, loud, and obnoxious people are annoying as hell in general. Drunk people walking around late at night has been going on since the concoction of alcohol so I'm not sure how you've now come to the conclusion that this is some super new immoral trend that JUST started happening. Welcome to the real world Neo.

Women don't want to stay at home and have babies anymore? GREAT!!! There are enough millenial snowflake fucktards walking around anyway. We need less people on this planet, not more. It also means that men are no longer expected to shelter a majority of the financial burden. So put 'em to work! Wealth will become much easier to amass for couples when things are split 50/50.

If a woman chooses to be a stay at home Mom... okie dokie also. As long as her and the father are decent human beings who won't raise douchebags, are financially/physically capable, and won't end up on my dime... awesome, go break a vagina!

Incestuous relationships are illegal not just because of the negative genetic consequences for the offspring... but mainly because there is a power dynamic between parent and child or between siblings that can be taken advantage of (ex: "grooming"). The people you sat with and think it's ok are idiots. Stop talking to idiots. There are extremely rare scenarios wherein son and mother for example have been separated since childhood, reunite, and "fall in love." Yup, I find it icky and weird as fuck... but they're two grown ass adults... who the fuck am I to tell them what to do? As long as they don't reproduce, I don't really care.

Being trans AND abandoning your kids are 2 different issues. Basically, that guy was trans AND an irresponsible dickhead. A 40 year-old guy who has a mid-life crisis who abandons his kids, cheats on and leaves the wifey with a gold digging 25 year-old broad, and dumps his bank account on a sports car... would also be just as big an irresponsible dickhead. Both of them need psychological help.

You've linked all this non-sense together that pretty much have no relation to the other and are declaring the end times. Society and culture is something that constantly changes. You don't like those changes because it doesn't fit your world view.

 

[Rod1]

Society is forever ruined is the most first world problems whine threads in Sherdog.

Sure society was far much better 100 years ago with the constant wars and lack of freedoms.

 

[tramendous]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. It's human nature to want to rub up against members of the opposite sex. It always has been and it always will be. 2000 years of Christianity hasn't changed that, and that is my point.

of course it is. but society exists to do that in a controlled manner. when the lizard part of the brain begins to control the higher mind, vices get out of control.

 

[tramendous]

Society is forever ruined is the most first world problems whine threads in Sherdog.

Sure society was far much better 100 years ago with the constant wars and lack of freedoms.

im not asking for society to completely revert to the way it was 100 years ago. I'm asking that we re-examine what we threw away with the bath water (the baby).

 

[tramendous]

There are extremely rare scenarios wherein son and mother for example have been separated since childhood, reunite, and "fall in love." Yup, I find it icky and weird as fuck... but they're two grown ass adults... who the fuck am I to tell them what to do? As long as they don't reproduce, I don't really care.

exhibit A

Being trans AND abandoning your kids are 2 different issues. Basically, that guy was trans AND an irresponsible dickhead. A 40 year-old guy who has a mid-life crisis who abandons his kids, cheats on and leaves the wifey with a gold digging 25 year-old broad, and dumps his bank account on a sports car... would also be just as big an irresponsible dickhead. Both of them need psychological help.

well he can't be the 6 year old girl he identifies as and a father.

 

[Rod1]

im not asking for society to completely revert to the way it was 100 years ago. I'm asking that we re-examine what we threw away with the bath water (the baby).

So thats what you call wars that caused the death of millions? bathwater?

 

[tramendous]

So thats what you call wars that caused the death of millions? bathwater?

lol its a saying don't take it too literally. never knew you were an outrage whore

 

[Rod1]

lol its a saying don't take it too literally. never knew you were an outrage whore

No, im seriously wondering if you either have nostalgia goggles for an age you didnt lived and are oblivious to how shitty it was in comparison or whether you think that the bad parts were acceptable enough because we had "values".

 

[tramendous]

No, im seriously wondering if you either have nostalgia goggles for an age you didnt lived and are oblivious to how shitty it was in comparison or whether you think that the bad parts were acceptable enough because we had "values".

i think throwing the baby out with the bath water is a self explanatory phrase when used in this context and i sort of remember others in this very thread using it as well. I have stated numerous times that i'm not trying to return to those times. what I am trying to do is instill some traditional values that have been actively eroded for decades and that is family values and things like honor and self respect and virtue. now of course i can sense as I type this message that your loading up the argument that there was an old timmy back then who was just as debased and shameless as modern people and thus that was the norm and always has been, but I'm pretty sure we both know that isn't true.

 

[Rod1]

i think throwing the baby out with the bath water is a self explanatory phrase when used in this context and i sort of remember others in this very thread using it as well. I have stated numerous times that i'm not trying to return to those times. what I am trying to do is instill some traditional values that have been actively eroded for decades and that is family values and things like honor and self respect and virtue. now of course i can sense as I type this message that your loading up the argument that there was an old timmy back then who had was just as debased and shameless as modern people and thus that was the norm and always has been, but I'm pretty sure we both know that isn't true.

The thing is that these values were a sham, as people have mentioned, people are still people, we just got ourselves in a position of freedom when before we were constrained by societal pressure.

Just look at how arab sheiks live, Saudi Arabia is a society with a lot of societal pressure for morality yet, those with money simply fly outside and participaty in debauchery abroad or at home secretly and then they double down on their fake morality and "atone" for their sins by donating to a local mosque.

So you want the cake and eat it too, you want humans to have freedom but you want them to not use that freedom like they want.

 

[tramendous]

The thing is that these values were a sham, as people have mentioned, people are still people, we just got ourselves in a position of freedom when before we were constrained by societal pressure.

so basically we sabotaged our own guide rails and like a kid who gives in to his vices when the parents aren't looking we gave in to that which devalues our character.

Just look at how arab sheiks live, Saudi Arabia is a society with a lot of societal pressure for morality yet, those with money simply fly outside and participaty in debauchery abroad or at home secretly and then they double down on their fake morality and "atone" for their sins by donating to a local mosque.

Yet the saudi sheikh is detested and looked at as someone we aught to not be while we give in to the same nonsense as much as we can. The hypocrite Saudi ruling family and the modern westerner has a lot in common. I'd argue that the Saudi Sheikh is what the individual modern westerner wants to be. Its exactly the lifestyle that the media, capitalism and entertainment industry seems to push.

So you want the cake and eat it too, you want humans to have freedom but you want them to not use that freedom like they want.

I'd want humans to use their freedoms responsibly. We are free to eat to our hearts content but I'd like it if Americans stopped being so obese but then they wouldn't be 'consumers' now would they lol

 

[Rod1]

so basically we sabotaged our own guide rails and like a kid who gives in to his vices when the parents aren't looking we gave in to that which devalues our character.



Yet the saudi sheikh is detested and looked at as someone we aught to not be while we give in to the same nonsense as much as we can. The hypocrite Saudi ruling family and the modern westerner has a lot in common. I'd argue that the Saudi Sheikh is what the individual modern westerner wants to be. Its exactly the lifestyle that the media, capitalism and entertainment industry seems to push.



I'd want humans to use their freedoms responsibly. We are free to eat to our hearts content but I'd like it if Americans stopped being so obese but then they wouldn't be 'consumers' now would they lol

And where did those rails where when all the wars of history were happening? the genocides, massacres and all that?

As i said, they were just a sham.

 

[tramendous]

And where did those rails where when all the wars of history were happening? the genocides, massacres and all that?

As i said, they were just a sham.

I dont think things are valued on whether or not they solve every problem especially when those things would condemn those acts.

 

[TheSherBro]

exhibit A



well he can't be the 6 year old girl he identifies as and a father.

I've already acknowledged that an incestuous relationship is NOT normal. It's fucking weird and completely unnatural. HOWEVER... there are very rare circumstances, where I don't give a shit. Mother and son who were separated, reunited when the son is already a grown ass adult, and "fall in love." I don't give a shit. As someone else pointed out to you... first world problems.

The ones I DO give a shit about is where there was grooming and sexual abuse happening... Any sort of grooming or sexual abuse, incestuous or not should always be a crime. With that said, That's NOT condoning incestuous relationships which is what you are attempting to strawman with your lame ass "Exhibit A" response.

Yup, he can't be a 6 year old girl he identifies as. He dun fucked up when he had kids. If he had NO KIDS and he didn't want medical help... if he decided to be a 6 year-old daughter and he found some other wacko who wanted to adopt him as their daughter... I couldn't give two shits what he does with his life. As long as he works, contributes to society, and pays his taxes... and that his mental instability won't fuck tax payers over in the future... Yeah man, I really don't care.

Now does that mean I approve of this kind of weird weird shit? Fuck no. As I said, these people need a shrink. Because he has kids, he needs to take some personal responsibility and deal with it until his kids are grown adults that will be financially independent and most importantly.... capable of mentally accepting his wishes if he refuses professional help. This is a moral concept that should be applied to anyone and everyone who has children they're responsible for... whether they're trans, alcoholic, mid-life crisis, drug addict... doesn't matter, it's irrelevant. You're trying to connect irresponsible dickhead to trans... I got news for yah... there are plenty of irresponsible dickheads. The only people who gets a free pass on being dickheads are people with personality disorders (narcissists, borderline, anti-social, etc.) everyone else has to deal.

 

[tramendous]

I've already acknowledged that an incestuous relationship is NOT normal. It's fucking weird and completely unnatural. HOWEVER... there are very rare circumstances, where I don't give a shit. Mother and son who were separated, reunited when the son is already a grown ass adult, and "fall in love." I don't give a shit. As someone else pointed out to you... first world problems.

The ones I DO give a shit about is where there was grooming and sexual abuse happening... Any sort of grooming or sexual abuse, incestuous or not should always be a crime. With that said, That's NOT condoning incestuous relationships which is what you are attempting to strawman with your lame ass "Exhibit A" response.

Yup, he can't be a 6 year old girl he identifies as. He dun fucked up when he had kids. If he had NO KIDS and he didn't want medical help... if he decided to be a 6 year-old daughter and he found some other wacko who wanted to adopt him as their daughter... I couldn't give two shits what he does with his life. As long as he works, contributes to society, and pays his taxes... and that his mental instability won't fuck tax payers over in the future... Yeah man, I really don't care.

Now does that mean I approve of this kind of weird weird shit? Fuck no. As I said, these people need a shrink. Because he has kids, he needs to take some personal responsibility and deal with it until his kids are grown adults that will be financially independent and most importantly.... capable of mentally accepting his wishes if he refuses professional help. This is a moral concept that should be applied to anyone and everyone who has children they're responsible for... whether they're trans, alcoholic, mid-life crisis, drug addict... doesn't matter, it's irrelevant. You're trying to connect irresponsible dickhead to trans... I got news for yah... there are plenty of irresponsible dickheads. The only people who gets a free pass on being dickheads are people with personality disorders (narcissists, borderline, anti-social, etc.) everyone else has to deal.

Ease up with the text walls man. Your 'i dont give a shit' lameness was addressed a long time ago.

 

[TheSherBro]

Ease up with the text walls man. Your 'i dont give a shit' lameness was addressed a long time ago.

Lol I'll ease up on the wall of text and "I don't give a shit" lameness when you ease up being a whiny little bitch about the end times of society just because you saw some drunk chics whose clothing you didn't find attarctive and because you talked to some retarded SJWs and concluded that must be how the rest of society thinks.

Yup, first world problems for sure. Get out of the basement once in a while mate. There are a lot of more serious shit to whine and moan about.