Wrestlers need to man up

[MC Paul Barman]

Is anyone who wrestled automatically in the wrestler camp, even if they've trained other stuff a lot more and don't really use wrestling in their fights? Because Gil has spent at least as much time on boxing and BJJ as he has on wrestling, and typically his boxing wins his fights.

I wrestled more than I ever boxed.

But I consider myself a boxer.

 

[DMai]

No, man, that's A.C. Slater, star wrestler from Bayside High. He had offers from Iowa, Penn St., etc., but got Kelly Kapowski pregnant and had to give up wrestling. Heard he fought underground MMA for a while to help pay for diapers and stuff.

Holy shit ahahahahahahhaha

 

[Uchi Mata]

I would say anyone who grew up wrestling and dedicated their youth to that sport is a wrestler.. Gilbert was a pretty good high school wrestler and was on a decent college team. I think he comes from a wrestling family.

I wouldn't really call BJ Penn a wrestler since he started wrestling after BJJ and only wrestled for 1 season, though it was at a college.

But even someone like Cung Le was a solid junior college wrestler, and Chuck Liddell was a division 1 wrestler.

It's almost as if people who like to fight are drawn to many combat sports rather than just one, and resist easy classification. If only there were a venue where they could display their skill by mixing their arts, rather than just practicing one at a time. Of course, such a fighter would then be hard to characterize as just 'a boxer' or 'a wrestler' since most of them would have experience across multiple disciplines and would use them interchangeably as needed. If only.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

So let's say all or even most wrestlers have that mentality. Which ones rise to the top, to win national championships, become all Americans, etc? The most athletic ones. Those are also the ones you see transitioning into MMA. Most fighters in the UFC have worked very, very hard for a very, very long time. Athleticism is a huge separating factor between 20-10th ranked guys and top 10 guys, and wrestlers who have made it through the grind of high school and college wrestling in the US have it in spades. You're starting with a very, very broad base of participation and only the most successful and athletic guys are going to stick with the sport all the way through college. The pyramid is much more narrow for BJJ, kickboxing, and (in the US) Judo, so the guys at the top have not had to overcome the same kind of opposition as elite wrestlers.

When everyone works hard and everyone is mentally tough, only the best athletes are going to rise to the top. Those are the wrestlers we see transitioning to the UFC, and they're head and shoulders above the rest in terms of athleticism. And it's a huge factor in their dominance because it lets them pick up other skills so quickly and do things that other fighters simply can't do from an athletic standpoint. Yes Dan Cormier works hard and is a great fighter, but think about how quickly he's picked up striking and submissions. Look at what he did powerbombing Dan Henderson. His speed and explosive strength are off the charts, and a guy like Glover Texiera is never going to match that no matter how hard he works. Cormier just has a higher top end, and on average anyone who's made it through the crucible of American wrestling (or Russian or Iranian wrestling, for that matter) is going to have that athleticism because otherwise they wouldn't have made it through. The gulag doesn't make you tough, it just kills off anyone who isn't tough.

So Frank Trigg, Matt Hughes, John Fitch, Chael Sonnen, Jake Ros holt, Dan Hensderson, Matt Lindland, etc. You would consider these guys extremely athletic? Explosive guys who would have excelled at other sports due to there "athletism"?

 

[Dirty Holt]

Is anyone who wrestled automatically in the wrestler camp, even if they've trained other stuff a lot more and don't really use wrestling in their fights? Because Gil has spent at least as much time on boxing and BJJ as he has on wrestling, and typically his boxing wins his fights.

If you competed in college or highschool as part of the wrestling team in your formative years, you are a wrestler. I can guaranfuckingtee you if you asked every UFC champ minus the two enemies (Aldo/Pettis) they will say they are wrestlers, regardless of how much BJJ and striking they use in fights.

Hail to the next American Hero:

 

[robotsonic]

LOL at this typical self aggrandising wrestler horseshit every time some guy who identifies as a wrestler wins a title. Gustafson has barely wrestled and he fucked Jones up. Aldo has been starching wrestlers on the regular for a long time and before a standout like Weidman came along so was Silva.For every Weidman or Dillashaw there are 100 Jake Rosholts. Sure its a good base but if you think that wrestlings dominance in MMA is anything other than to do with the fact UFC is an american sport you're deluded. If UFC was invented in Thailand most of its practitioners would have a muay Thai background.

 

[Toothless King]

LOL at this typical self aggrandising wrestler horseshit every time some guy who identifies as a wrestler wins a title. Gustafson has barely wrestled and he fucked Jones up. Aldo has been starching wrestlers on the regular for a long time and before a standout like Weidman came along so was Silva.For every Weidman or Dillashaw there are 100 Jake Rosholts. Sure its a good base but if you think that wrestlings dominance in MMA is anything other than to do with the fact UFC is an american sport you're deluded. If UFC was invented in Thailand most of its practitioners would have a muay Thai background.

Yeah, but UFC was invented by the Gracies

 

[Rod1]

LOL at this typical self aggrandising wrestler horseshit every time some guy who identifies as a wrestler wins a title. Gustafson has barely wrestled and he fucked Jones up. Aldo has been starching wrestlers on the regular for a long time and before a standout like Weidman came along so was Silva.For every Weidman or Dillashaw there are 100 Jake Rosholts. Sure its a good base but if you think that wrestlings dominance in MMA is anything other than to do with the fact UFC is an american sport you're deluded. If UFC was invented in Thailand most of its practitioners would have a muay Thai background.

No, because most MT practitioners worth their salt would simply do MT.

American wrestling is unique because their best wrestlers have no venue to wrestle after college.

 

[BrainBar]

It's almost as if people who like to fight are drawn to many combat sports rather than just one, and resist easy classification. If only there were a venue where they could display their skill by mixing their arts, rather than just practicing one at a time. Of course, such a fighter would then be hard to characterize as just 'a boxer' or 'a wrestler' since most of them would have experience across multiple disciplines and would use them interchangeably as needed. If only.

That would be such a fantastic idea!!! And...imagine, if only, that particular display allowed the true best fighter to win...by not having rules that favor one style over another, or rules that...for example...bail out a fighter who is in a position he cant escape, but has rules or a ref to end the misery and get them back up.

 

[BrainBar]

I think the success of American wrestlers is just an extension of the greatness of American athletes in general. We are the richest country on Earth, and many of our young athletes have the best coaching, best available nutrition, etc. They don't have to work to feed families as much as in other countries. Same reason we produce the worlds top basketball and football players, and golfers, and so many other great athletes.

When you take an American born male, and he wrestled, and then add in striking and jiujitsu...its a perfect storm.

 

[Uchi Mata]

So Frank Trigg, Matt Hughes, John Fitch, Chael Sonnen, Jake Ros holt, Dan Hensderson, Matt Lindland, etc. You would consider these guys extremely athletic? Explosive guys who would have excelled at other sports due to there "athletism"?

Matt Hughes is so strong that the first time Pat Militech sparred with him he accused him of being on steroids. He used to routinely KO guys by picking them up and slamming them so hard it knocked them out. Henderson still has one punch KO power at 44. Randy Couture was able to outmuscle and outwork guys half his age. Those are not things ordinary athletes do.

And no, not all wrestlers in MMA are super athletes. But Fitch, Trigg, Sonnen, etc have never been champs. They weren't even champs in wrestling. Fitch was never an All American, neither was Sonnen. Trigg is also a very, very good athlete. But I do think Fitch, Chael, and Trigg are all above average athletes for the UFC.

As for Lindland yes, as an Olympic medalist I would consider him to have above average athleticism for the UFC

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you competed in college or highschool as part of the wrestling team in your formative years, you are a wrestler. I can guaranfuckingtee you if you asked every UFC champ minus the two enemies (Aldo/Pettis) they will say they are wrestlers, regardless of how much BJJ and striking they use in fights.

Mostly I agree with you. Certainly all the current champs. But would Bendo describe himself as wrestler (he usually repped TKD), or Cruz? GSP used wrestling better than pretty much anyone, but he usually described himself as a karate guy.

Other than being a good indicator that this is probably a tough, super athletic dude I'm not sure the wrestling monicker means all that much given how cross trained these guys are at this point. Watching his last fight I'd think Dillashaw was a kickboxer, or Jones was a damn kung fu master.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Mostly I agree with you. Certainly all the current champs. But would Bendo describe himself as wrestler (he usually repped TKD), or Cruz? GSP used wrestling better than pretty much anyone, but he usually described himself as a karate guy.

Other than being a good indicator that this is probably a tough, super athletic dude I'm not sure the wrestling monicker means all that much given how cross trained these guys are at this point. Watching his last fight I'd think Dillashaw was a kickboxer, or Jones was a damn kung fu master.

Considering I beat Bendo 2x, and he wrestled against us in college for 4 years about 8 times, and was a 3x All American wrestler in his early 20's before he ever considered MMA, yes I would consider him a wrestler, and a damn good one at that.

Here is your 3x WEC champ, 4x UFC champ College Wrestler Benson "Murica" Henderson

 

[flowroller]

That's a pretty obvious point, though. So I don't really see why you are making it. No one is saying that wrestlers are winning fights with only wrestling.

Maybe you should read the OP and the thread title again. Perhaps then you can understand why I am making the point.

 

[rmongler]

good striking or good submissions win championships only if youve got the wrestling to play to your strengths, or likewise, expose gaps in the opponents skill set.

 

[Rod1]

good striking or good submissions win championships only if youve got the wrestling to play to your strengths, or likewise, expose gaps in the opponents skill set.

If striking is your strength you only need takedown defense and the ability to stand up, which is why dominant strikers like JDS can beat pretty much anyone not named Cain Velazquez.

 

[rmongler]

If striking is your strength you only need takedown defense and the ability to stand up, which is why dominant strikers like JDS can beat pretty much anyone not named Cain Velazquez.

well the question then is who has the advantage, the defensive wrestler or the take down artist. obviously dana doesnt like ground and pound and the rules in most orgs discourage it, but the success in spite of this of guys like hughes or gsp (in lighter divisions at that, where its usually harder to get on the mat unwillingly) points to it being the more foolproof strategy imo.

theres also the fact that in the heavyweight divisions the bodies ability to handle shocks does not increase with the bodies ability to sling leather.

 

[BrainBar]

If striking is your strength you only need takedown defense and the ability to stand up, which is why dominant strikers like JDS can beat pretty much anyone not named Cain Velazquez.

Then why do MMA refs always have to stand up strikers who are grounded...and cant get up.

Haha, like the old lady in that commercial........."Help!! I've been taken down...and I cant get up!!"

Lots of strikers cannot get up once grounded by a very good grappler. Unfortunately, MMA is evolving so striker-friendly, that many fights outside the UFC/Bellator don't have a decent grappler between the 2 of them.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Because in other sports you learn to lose a lot?

Its a combination of athleticism, lack of career options in wrestling and the fact that MMA is an american sport.

Yes, it is much more unexceptable to loose in wrestling than in other sports IMO. And MMA is an "American" sport?

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Because Gil has spent at least as much time on boxing and BJJ as he has on wrestling, and typically his boxing wins his fights.

This just simply isn't true. Gilbert started wrestling at a young age, wrestled thru high school and college before taking up MMA (boxing/BJJ). He has been training boxing and BJJ for awhile now, buuuuut. GASP! He also continued to train his wrestle!!! He didn't stop wrestling!