Wrestlers need to man up

[KILL KILL]

It's time to ramp this wrastlin love train up a bit. The intensity is palpable.

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[Crossface9]

Great thread/great movie. I love the end where Butke gets married and they are playing simple man...

 

[Leify]

I loved that documentary. Mocco and his fucking traveling kitchen. That's a true heavyweight.

 

[LoRezzz]

Basketball and especially American football are the best pure athletes, not wrestling.

Wrestling is a great skillset for MMA, no doubt. But it sure as hell isn't the only one, and I would say it's arguable whether it's even the most important one.

Wrestling has great athletes, but NFL and NBA are on another level entirely. Wrestlers aren't paid squat, so the inferior athletes go there. Sames goes for any other sport, including MMA. The athletes go where the money is, plain and simple.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

If striking is your strength you only need takedown defense and the ability to stand up, which is why dominant strikers like JDS can beat pretty much anyone not named Cain Velazquez.

This makes zero sense! Everyone else in the division are strikers, lol! So he can out strike the strikers but gets the ever living sh!t stomped out of him vs the wrestler!?

Makes sense.

 

[Rod1]

This makes zero sense! Everyone else in the division are strikers, lol! So he can out strike the strikers but gets the ever living sh!t stomped out of him vs the wrestler!?

Makes sense.

So Shane Carwin and Frank Mir arent wrestlers? wasnt Brock Lesnar a wrestler?

Also didnt Roy Nelson wrestled in highschool or are they only wrestlers when they win.

Wrestlers will always be ahead of the curve because of the crapload of wrestlers that find themselves careerless after college and the fact that wrestling is the only scholastic martial art in America.

 

[spunkbun**]

I thought this was gonna be an anti-wrestling thread haha!!

Wrestling is just one of the several ground martial arts in grappling.

I think Brazilian-JiuJitsu kinda showed the world the ground game and its effectiveness...and now wrestlers are just taking it to a whole new level. Combine jiujitsu submissions with wrestlings pure dominance of position...and you have trouble for an opponent!

Except if the opponent is decent at throwing knees, like Aldo, then the wrestlers will dive for double legs but end up eating knees.

 

[DiegoLunes]

Basketball and especially American football are the best pure athletes, not wrestling.

Wrestling is a great skillset for MMA, no doubt. But it sure as hell isn't the only one, and I would say it's arguable whether it's even the most important one.

Wrestling has great athletes, but NFL and NBA are on another level entirely. Wrestlers aren't paid squat, so the inferior athletes go there. Sames goes for any other sport, including MMA. The athletes go where the money is, plain and simple.

Not everyone is motivated by money. Your theory is basically they are the best athletes because they make the most money.

By your theory, Keanu Reeves is a better actor than Don Cheadle.

 

[Terror Zone]

Because in other sports you learn to lose a lot?

Its a combination of athleticism, lack of career options in wrestling and the fact that MMA is an american sport.

There's also the fact that everything about the unified rules favor wrestlers. The cage, rounds, gloves, inability to hit a downed opponent or hit anywhere near the back of the head... I would be shocked if wrestlers weren't succeeding as much as they are right now, modern MMA caters to them in every way possible. Take all those things out of the equation and it becomes more about Muay Thai and BJJ than wrestling and boxing.

 

[Rod1]

There's also the fact that everything about the unified rules favor wrestlers. The cage, rounds, gloves, inability to hit a downed opponent or hit anywhere near the back of the head... I would be shocked if wrestlers weren't succeeding as much as they are right now, modern MMA caters to them in every way possible. Take all those things out of the equation and it becomes more about Muay Thai and BJJ than wrestling and boxing.

Except that most wrestlers are winning with striking so you can drop the rules favor wrestler non-sense, if anything it favors strikers because you get stood up and the fight starts standing up.

 

[Terror Zone]

Except that most wrestlers are winning with striking so you can drop the rules favor wrestler non-sense, if anything it favors strikers because you get stood up and the fight starts standing up.

The rules favor wrestlers who can box, nothing about what I said was nonsense. The gloves make punching that often without breaking a hand a realistic option when it wouldn't be without them, they also make chokes much more difficult which obviously helps wrestlers. The cage undoubtedly helps them, not having to worry about being hit anywhere near the back of the head when their shots get stuffed helps them. The fact that they can't get upkicked while in someone's guard helps them. Stand ups and rounds hurt BJJ practitioners more than anything.

I'd love to hear how any of this is wrong. The fact that the most successful wrestlers in MMA today are the ones who've learned to strike effectively doesn't negate anything I said.

 

[SFCFighter]

Matt Hughes is so strong that the first time Pat Militech sparred with him he accused him of being on steroids. He used to routinely KO guys by picking them up and slamming them so hard it knocked them out. Henderson still has one punch KO power at 44. Randy Couture was able to outmuscle and outwork guys half his age. Those are not things ordinary athletes do.

And no, not all wrestlers in MMA are super athletes. But Fitch, Trigg, Sonnen, etc have never been champs. They weren't even champs in wrestling. Fitch was never an All American, neither was Sonnen. Trigg is also a very, very good athlete. But I do think Fitch, Chael, and Trigg are all above average athletes for the UFC.

As for Lindland yes, as an Olympic medalist I would consider him to have above average athleticism for the UFC

Chael Sonnen was a Division 1 All-American, he placed 8th in his final year

 

[Razor]

I love this thread.

 

[Uchi Mata]

This just simply isn't true. Gilbert started wrestling at a young age, wrestled thru high school and college before taking up MMA (boxing/BJJ). He has been training boxing and BJJ for awhile now, buuuuut. GASP! He also continued to train his wrestle!!! He didn't stop wrestling!

No shit, he's a mixed martial artist. When was the last time you saw him take someone down? All top 10 guys are pretty good at all the skills of MMA including wrestling. That most of the American top competitors are also wrestlers shouldn't be all that surprising since wrestling is by far the most popular American competitive martial art.

Also, did not know Chael was ever an All American. Good for him. I know he was pretty good at Greco.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The rules favor wrestlers who can box, nothing about what I said was nonsense. The gloves make punching that often without breaking a hand a realistic option when it wouldn't be without them, they also make chokes much more difficult which obviously helps wrestlers. The cage undoubtedly helps them, not having to worry about being hit anywhere near the back of the head when their shots get stuffed helps them. The fact that they can't get upkicked while in someone's guard helps them. Stand ups and rounds hurt BJJ practitioners more than anything.

I'd love to hear how any of this is wrong. The fact that the most successful wrestlers in MMA today are the ones who've learned to strike effectively doesn't negate anything I said.

Gloves help strikers more than wrestlers, since strikers throw more strikes (obviously). The cage frankly makes it easier for people to get up when taken down, and the clinch up against the cage is very different from any sort of clinch you'd find in amateur wrestling. I'd say the cage is at best a wash. Upkicking is not super relevant since if a wrestler takes you down they're going to be down on top of you, not standing two feet away. Stand ups make a difference, but they hurt wrestlers as much as anyone since it means you have to take down guys multiple times and not just once followed by a long series of small strikes wearing them down, which is what wrestlers used to do in no time limits fights. Shamrock - Gracie 2 is probably the best example of what happens to a BJJ guy if a wrestler knows sub defense and takes him down with essentially no time limit.

Everyone likes to talk about Pride and pride rules, but people forget there weren't all that many great wrestlers in Pride compared to what there have always been in the UFC, and when they did enter they tended to do pretty well. If anything the unified rules favor strikers, because they allow them to stall their way back to standing and give them round breaks which also get them back to standing. No time limit fights clearly favor grapplers, and I think also favor the person who can get on top first which is usually going to be a good wrestler.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

So Shane Carwin and Frank Mir arent wrestlers? wasnt Brock Lesnar a wrestler?

Also didnt Roy Nelson wrestled in highschool or are they only wrestlers when they win.

Wrestlers will always be ahead of the curve because of the crapload of wrestlers that find themselves careerless after college and the fact that wrestling is the only scholastic martial art in America.

Thank you for bringing to light 2 more wrestlers who were UFC Champions in Carwin and Mir.........

 

[LaBrian]

The rules favor wrestlers who can box, nothing about what I said was nonsense. The gloves make punching that often without breaking a hand a realistic option when it wouldn't be without them, they also make chokes much more difficult which obviously helps wrestlers. The cage undoubtedly helps them, not having to worry about being hit anywhere near the back of the head when their shots get stuffed helps them. The fact that they can't get upkicked while in someone's guard helps them. Stand ups and rounds hurt BJJ practitioners more than anything.

I'd love to hear how any of this is wrong. The fact that the most successful wrestlers in MMA today are the ones who've learned to strike effectively doesn't negate anything I said.

This is why bragging that wrestlers are dominating in a system that specifically advantages them is as dumb as the talk about how an MMA fighter would tool a boxer in an MMA fight. Well yeah of course. Lets go bare knuckles and allow kicks and knees to a downed opponent and see what happens.

 

[LaBrian]

Gloves help strikers more than wrestlers, since strikers throw more strikes (obviously). The cage frankly makes it easier for people to get up when taken down, and the clinch up against the cage is very different from any sort of clinch you'd find in amateur wrestling. I'd say the cage is at best a wash. Upkicking is not super relevant since if a wrestler takes you down they're going to be down on top of you, not standing two feet away. Stand ups make a difference, but they hurt wrestlers as much as anyone since it means you have to take down guys multiple times and not just once followed by a long series of small strikes wearing them down, which is what wrestlers used to do in no time limits fights. Shamrock - Gracie 2 is probably the best example of what happens to a BJJ guy if a wrestler knows sub defense and takes him down with essentially no time limit.

Everyone likes to talk about Pride and pride rules, but people forget there weren't all that many great wrestlers in Pride compared to what there have always been in the UFC, and when they did enter they tended to do pretty well. If anything the unified rules favor strikers, because they allow them to stall their way back to standing and give them round breaks which also get them back to standing. No time limit fights clearly favor grapplers, and I think also favor the person who can get on top first which is usually going to be a good wrestler.

The gloves favor wrestlers who have taken 2 years and learned to strike decently. Being a world class striker doesn't help you if you can be ragdolled at will by a great wrestler, but being a a great wrestler that does a few things really well striking wise, or even just one thing at a world class level makes you an MMA beast.

Against a better striker who isn't as good of a wrestler you take them down and GNP. You can shoot all day with almost no penalty for a failed shot cause you can't get a knee to the head if your knee is down.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The gloves favor wrestlers who have taken 2 years and learned to strike decently. Being a world class striker doesn't help you if you can be ragdolled at will by a great wrestler, but being a a great wrestler that does a few things really well striking wise, or even just one thing at a world class level makes you an MMA beast.

Against a better striker who isn't as good of a wrestler you take them down and GNP. You can shoot all day with almost no penalty for a failed shot cause you can't get a knee to the head if your knee is down.

So gloves help wrestlers to strike once they learn to strike? Ok. How is that an advantage specific to wrestlers? If anything gloves hurt wrestlers because good strikers can throw with impunity since they're unlikely get their hands broken.

I do think knees on the ground would hurt wrestlers some, but only if the strikers developed enough TDD (again, got better at wrestling themselves) to actually get to a sprawl in the first place.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Knees on the ground IMO heavily favors the wrestler.