Would Aspinall have been ranked in the heyday of the UFC HW division?

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

So what you're saying is Tom got subbed by a regional can despite 15 years of grappling, meanwhile Gane didn't get subbed until facing GOAT Jon Jones despite only 6 years of grappling?

And this is somehow better for Tom?

I'm saying Tom was very young when it happened, seems harsh to put so much stock in something that occurred when a guy was 22 years old and in his 4th MMA fight. How many great fighters have losses early in their careers? Ngannou lost his 2nd fight, Mir got mauled by slow manlet Ian Freeman, AA got knocked out by fucking Datsik. Etc etc.

How do you know Gane wouldnt have more sub losses or been wrestlefucked more if he had been fighting in MMA since he was 21? UFC havent exactly been eager to put Gane in with Blaydes or Jailton either. Pav potentially has the ability to beat Gane with wrestling too. They dont like Gane losing outside of title fights though, because hes marketable for them and losing outside of title fights would cause him to slip down the rankings into irrelevancy.

 

[Superzorro]

I initially said "imagine if this was 2009 and there was a HW out there who in the last few years had stopped Tim, Mir and post-Pride Nog in the first round they'd be getting plenty of hype".

Which version of Mir for example was "prime"? he had good wins and rough losses pretty much dotted around his entire career. I honestly dont know which run of his you could pinpoint as him being at his best.

I think you're placing too much value on guys being "names" and beating other names rather than the stylistic match ups.

Ah I see what you're trying to do here. The problem is that Tom hasn't stopped the equivalent of those fighters, at those times. He fought to a decision against the only one who would be in that category to begin with, when they were 40 years old. And the rest of the guys aren't even major names. If it was 2009 and there was a guy who went to DECISION with Tim Sylvia and then stopped like I don't know... Roy Nelson, Todd Duffee, Mike Russo... I doubt they would have this much hype behind them.

Even if we look at stylistic match ups, Frank Mir submitting Lesnar and Nogueira, Roberto Traven (who a lot of people don't know about) makes it to where I can confidently say Aspinall would have nothing for him on the ground. And then for example, someone like DC - I'm sorry but there's no Brit that is avoiding going for a ride against Prime DC. The wrestling pedigree just isn't there.

This being a case in point. Blaydes was 18-4 when Tom fought him, 14-4 in the UFC. His losses were exclusively to heavy hitters. On paper he is a very difficult match up for a guy like Brock, who I assume you wouldnt consider a "bum"?

As for getting KO'd be Derrick Lewis, is that worse than prime CC getting knocked out cold by a 5'8 wrestler who was coming off of back to back losses in a lower weight class? or Tim while still considered a top 5 HW getting knocked in 10 seconds by a 48 year old boxer? same Tim getting mauled by a 44 year old Randy who is around the same size as DDP?

He's not a difficult match up for Brock, what is wrong with you dude? Brock Lesnar is better than Blaydes at everything.
Who you mean Kevin Randleman? I don't know. I think that was a pretty bad look for Cro Cop, but the sum of his wins make up for it. Randy Couture is an all time great. And then, I don't remember being the one that introduced Tim Sylvia into the discussion. Was his name even in the original post? I can't remember. But I don't really consider Tim Sylvia to be one of the greats. My point stands without Big Tim. But what we're not going to do is disrespect a legend like Cro Cop to prop up this new kid Tom Aspinall.

I think theres a healthy middle ground between "he'd beat everyone ever" and "he'd lose to Big Country because he hasnt fought any recognisable names, and his best wins would get wiped out by Tim Sylvia"

I'd say Tim Sylvia has done more than his best wins. But that's not me saying that Tim Sylvia is an all time great. You're putting words in my mouth. You don't have to be an all time great to beat those guys. Volkov, a guy who couldn't even make it in Bellator proved it against Pavlovich. And Derrick Lewis proved it against Volkov.

 

[Superzorro]

"Behind the keyboard" I know where I've been and what I've done. Who I've been in a cage with. I (still) won't claim to know about you. So yes, 100% I know the truth about myself. And I don't need to put on a show. It seems like you do, though I'm doing everything I can not to jump to conclusions. My base was grappling yes, but I was surrounded by strikers. But sure, "nobody who's ever laced up boxing gloves" would be impressed by a guy in the premier MMA organization knocking out 5 consecutive top 10 guys in the first round. FFS...there aren't words.


Ahh plural. Doesn't count unless there's MORE than one example of "great" fighters that this applies to. While "great" is utterly undefined and just subject to who you deem "great". Who qualifies as "great" by your HW MMA standards?

Boxing people laugh at MMA strikers all the time. Stop it. Just stop it man. The longer this goes on, the more your so called "background" gets exposed. Tom Aspinall is not going to be the guy to change that. Sorry to break it to you. He's not Superman. He's not even Conor McGregor.

Yeah, that's how debating works. If you can only prove 1/10 (ten being a generous number because there are more than 10 great heavyweights) examples, you're wrong. Exceptions don't make the rule.

 

[markg171]

I'm saying Tom was very young when it happened, seems harsh to put so much stock in something that occurred when a guy was 22 years old and in his 4th MMA fight. How many great fighters have losses early in their careers? Ngannou lost his 2nd fight, Mir got mauled by slow manlet Ian Freeman, AA got knocked out by fucking Datsik. Etc etc.

How do you know Gane wouldnt have more sub losses or been wrestlefucked more if he had been fighting in MMA since he was 21? UFC havent exactly been eager to put Gane in with Blaydes or Jailton either. Pav potentially has the ability to beat Gane with wrestling too. They dont like Gane losing outside of title fights though, because hes marketable for them and losing outside of title fights would cause him to slip down the rankings into irrelevancy.

Tom's been grappling since he was 7 though. So when you say he was "only 22 then" you're being quite a bit misleading about that actually being 15 years of grappling experience already when he still got submitted by a random regional can. He may have even been a black belt then, we're not sure when he's promoted except that it's before 2017.

Meanwhile you're raring to go about Gane only ever getting submitted by the GOAT Jon Jones in his 6th year of MMA.

That's... quite a bit better than Tom's by literally every metric imaginable.

 

[mkess101]

Boxing people laugh at MMA strikers all the time. Stop it. Just stop it man. The longer this goes on, the more your so called "background" gets exposed. Tom Aspinall is not going to be the guy to change that. Sorry to break it to you. He's not Superman. He's not even Conor McGregor.

Yeah, that's how debating works. If you can only prove 1/10 (ten being a generous number because there are more than 10 great heavyweights) examples, you're wrong. Exceptions don't make the rule.

Sorry...did Aspinall become a boxer or is he an MMA fighter? I guess I didn't realize he needs to beat Usyk in a boxing match to be a great MMA striker. Yeah boxers are better...boxers than MMA fighters. Put Usyk and Aspinall in a cage or ring and see what happens. Aspinall KO's his MIXED MARTIAL ARTS opponents because he has a massive striking edge against them. If he was fighting Anthony Joshua what do you think he'd do? Stand with him? Damn this is painful, there's definitely someone being exposed but sure isn't me.

I asked who the "great" HW's are by your standards. I found the JDS example pretty easily. So...name the "great" MMA HW's. Overeem? Does he qualify in your eyes?

 

[mkess101]

Tom's been grappling since he was 7 though. So when you say he was "only 22 then" you're being quite a bit misleading about that actually being 15 years of grappling experience already when he still got submitted by a random regional can. He may have even been a black belt then, we're not sure when he's promoted except that it's before 2017.

Meanwhile you're raring to go about Gane only ever getting submitted by the GOAT Jon Jones in his 6th year of MMA.

That's... quite a bit better than Tom's by literally every metric imaginable.

I'd love to see Gane vs Aspinall in a no gi grappling match LMAO. Gane would get clowned so badly.

But I know you'll argue otherwise little Marky. It's what you do. Will be amusing.

 

[markg171]

I'd love to see Gane vs Aspinall in a no gi grappling match LMAO. Gane would get clowned so badly.

But I know you'll argue otherwise little Marky. It's what you do. Will be amusing.

So Tom of 26 years grappling likely outgrapples 8 years grappling Gane?

Wow.

 

[Superzorro]

Sorry...did Aspinall become a boxer or is he an MMA fighter? I guess I didn't realize he needs to beat Usyk in a boxing match to be a great MMA striker. Yeah boxers are better...boxers than MMA fighters. Put Usyk and Aspinall in a cage or ring and see what happens. Aspinall KO's his MIXED MARTIAL ARTS opponents because he has a massive striking edge against them. If he was fighting Anthony Joshua what do you think he'd do? Stand with him? Damn this is painful, there's definitely someone being exposed but sure isn't me.

Ah but you see you're treating him like he's Usyk standing and Gordon Ryan on the ground. I'm trying to bring you back to reality. He is not cut like that. We've seen much more impressive prospects throughout the years. There's nothing he's done to warrant this level of hype. In fact, the guy whose career you guys keep downplaying, Jon Jones, you know him? He actually had way better showings when he was younger. They weren't promoting him like they are this guy. Like almost every great I can remember looked better than the sum of what Aspinall has done so far.
And the thing is this - I'm not even an Aspinall fan. You are. And just me remembering the Pavlovich fight off the top of my head was clearer and more accurate than what you said happened. That lets me know the level of delusion I'm dealing with. You had this entire elaborate fight movie scene choreography in your head. Then I posted the gif and that had you backtracking like a mf. I don't want to hear it. You lost this debate.

 

[mkess101]

So Tom of 26 years grappling likely outgrapples 8 years grappling Gane?

Wow.

Dude YOU were the one stating that Tom getting caught in a heel hook 10 years ago was worse "by every metric imaginable" than Gane tapping to Jones.

Forget that we just saw Volov outgrapple Gane while Tom subbed Volkov inside a round...

 

[Superzorro]

I asked who the "great" HW's are by your standards. I found the JDS example pretty easily. So...name the "great" MMA HW's. Overeem? Does he qualify in your eyes?

No you're not going to weasel your way out of this. Name the other examples that would disprove my point.

 

[Superzorro]

Dude YOU were the one stating that Tom getting caught in a heel hook 10 years ago was worse "by every metric imaginable" than Gane tapping to Jones.

It is. What you're doing here is a logical fallacy. You're now trying to turn this into a debate of who is a better grappler instead of which loss looks worse on a resume. You've been doing this the entire time.

 

[lsa]

It's kinda funny people call Gane 1 dimensional when he's got the same amount of sub wins and losses as Tom.

Except his sub loss was to Jon Jones and not Stuart Austin.

Maybe it's partly based on Tom actually competing in BJJ?
"Aspinall won the British Open in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in every belt class except black."

Winning BJJ comp is at least to me a good indicator of a ground game.

 

[mkess101]

No you're not going to weasel your way out of this. Name the other examples that would disprove my point.

How can I name them if I don’t even known who you consider a "great" HW? You're the one trying to be a weasel.

 

[markg171]

Maybe it's partly based on Tom actually competing in BJJ?
"Aspinall won the British Open in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in every belt class except black."

Winning BJJ comp is at least to me a good indicator of a ground game.

Brother saying Tom is a simultaneously a competent grappler AND got subbed by a regional can compared to Gane isn't the flex you think it is.

 

[markg171]

Dude YOU were the one stating that Tom getting caught in a heel hook 10 years ago was worse "by every metric imaginable" than Gane tapping to Jones.

Forget that we just saw Volov outgrapple Gane while Tom subbed Volkov inside a round...

Yes I do think it's worse to get subbed by a regional can despite 15 years of grappling experience than to get subbed by the GOAT in your 6th year.

Do you somehow think it's not???

 

[lsa]

Brother saying Tom is a simultaneously a competent grappler AND got subbed by a regional can compared to Gane isn't the flex you think it is.

LOL at you thinking its a flex pointing out that winning BJJ competitions is prof the dude has an actually ground game.
I am pretty confident Tom would beat Gane in grappling.
Better BJJ fighters has lost by subs to lesser competition.. Its a fight, anything can happen.

 

[Superzorro]

How can I name them if I don’t even known who you consider a "great" HW? You're the one trying to be a weasel.

...Wow. Forget being a "fighter" or "grappler," whatever it is you said. I'm having my doubts that you're even an adult. You're all over the place.

 

[mkess101]

It is. What you're doing here is a logical fallacy. You're now trying to turn this into a debate of who is a better grappler instead of which loss looks worse on a resume. You've been doing this the entire time.

No, it's not in the context of their career arcs.

Losing by sub when you're 22 in your 4th MMA fight is some sort of career defining thing? Are you actually retarded?

Gane was outgrappled by a striker Ngannou in UFC title fight. Then subbed without seeming to know anything about grappling by Jones in a 2nd consecutive UFC title fight. Then was just outgrappled by another striker Volkov in his last fight.

Seems like at some point if you're an elite HW in the top org you'd not continue to be dominated by grappling.

But yeah, instead fixate on a sub loss a decade ago by a guy who's shown no grappling deficiencies since.

Great logic!

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Ah I see what you're trying to do here. The problem is that Tom hasn't stopped the equivalent of those fighters, at those times. He fought to a decision against the only one who would be in that category to begin with, when they were 40 years old.

The only decision was AAs decision to tap.

And the rest of the guys aren't even major names. If it was 2009 and there was a guy who went to DECISION with Tim Sylvia and then stopped like I don't know... Roy Nelson, Todd Duffee, Mike Russo... I doubt they would have this much hype behind them.

You think stopping Pav, Blaydes and Volkov in the first round is the equivalent of going to decision with Tim, and beating Big Country, Duffee and Mike Russow? really? I dont think Duffee and Russow are better than Spivac and Tybura never mind Pav etc.

So would you say Ray Mercer has a better win in MMA than Tom then? I mean, he stopped Tim in 10 seconds...

Even if we look at stylistic match ups, Frank Mir submitting Lesnar and Nogueira, Roberto Traven (who a lot of people don't know about) makes it to where I can confidently say Aspinall would have nothing for him on the ground.

Mir also managed to get stopped in the first round by 5'9 slow flat footed Ian Freeman, Brandon Vera and the 1-0 at the time Marcio Cruz. Yes he had some great wins over the years but theres nothing to say he has an easy time with Tom or even several of the guys Tom beat.

He's not a difficult match up for Brock, what is wrong with you dude? Brock Lesnar is better than Blaydes at everything.

Ah yes Brock is better everywhere...including striking...lol what?

Brock would need to wrestlefuck Blaydes, which on paper wouldnt be easy. Nowadays it'd probably be a 5 rounder by default too. Pav would also be a scary fight for Brock as he seems to have enough wrestling to force Brock into stand up situations, and the power to hurt him quick in those situations.



Brock is a perfect example of a guy being overrated due to nostalgia and being around during a more exciting time. If you really break down his career its..

- Scraping past Carwin (the "legend" who was in the UFC a total of 3 years and had three career victories over guys with wiki pages) by the skin of his teeth after taking a massive ass kicking.

- Going 1-1 with Mir, a guy who, while absolutely capable of being very good at times, by that time also had first round losses to Ian Freeman, Brandon Vera and a guy who had had one MMA fight, which apparently isnt worse than losing to Derrick Lewis.

- A 45 year old who would be considered on the small side for LHW now

- 42 year old one dimensional career journeyman Mark Hunt

- Heath Herring, who (kind of) retired right after.


Guy had less than 10 fights in his entire career and his wins arent any better than Toms, but Tom is regarded as practically a prospect who is "unproven".

Who you mean Kevin Randleman? I don't know. I think that was a pretty bad look for Cro Cop, but the sum of his wins make up for it.

The point is, if you're gonna write someone off for getting caught by Derrick Lewis, you can find similar or worse losses for plenty of great fighters. Obviously CC had some bad losses in the UFC as well but with the Randleman one at least there isnt the "he wasnt in his prime" argument.

Randy Couture is an all time great.

Just like with the "AA is Toms best win" narrative that some people weirdly try to push, what you have done throughout the course of your entire career does not define how good you are at fighting at an exact moment in time, in this case we are talking an ATG Randy Couture.....but in his mid 40s fighting at HW. Let me guess...you think he'd have beaten Pav, Blaydes and Volkov too?

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Tom's been grappling since he was 7 though. So when you say he was "only 22 then" you're being quite a bit misleading about that actually being 15 years of grappling experience already when he still got submitted by a random regional can. He may have even been a black belt then, we're not sure when he's promoted except that it's before 2017.

Meanwhile you're raring to go about Gane only ever getting submitted by the GOAT Jon Jones in his 6th year of MMA.

That's... quite a bit better than Tom's by literally every metric imaginable.

Lets just take this back to the core of the argument....are you saying Ciryl Gane is a better grappler than Tom Aspinall?