What skillset is needed to beat the top-level Dagestanis in their prime?

Doubt a style exists that will dominate them or even win more than 50% of the time but that doesn’t mean they can’t lose. Khabib’s cousin got ktfo by a knee in the clinch & those kind of fight ending strikes are key imo if you want to have a chance. It’s why a lot of us thought prime Tony might have what it takes. Obviously you need solid tdd etc but spinning elbows, knees & such as part of an overall sound defensive game plan could conceivably catch these guys off guard & lead to some W’s. But it’s a tough puzzle to solve & I can’t envision anyone consistantly beating the top Dagestani fighters anytime soon.
 
SovereignPhantom said:
Obviously I'm aware Islam has been KO'd and Khabib arguably lost to Tibau early on in his UFC career.

And I realize Khabib's team are exceptionally prepared, don't do short notice fights, etc.

But skill-wise, what will it take to beat them? Volk and Dustin both dropped or stunned Islam, Cory landed a really clean left yesterday that definitely hurt Umar. Yet this wasn't enough to win even with their exceptional grappling defense.

Arman has shown that offensive wrestling isn't enough to win (though, yes, he also fought short notice).

I'm thinking someone will need power in their hands and amazing offensive AND defensive grappling to stand a chance at winning more than just the rare lucky punch. But it just doesn't seem like this combo exists yet.
Click to expand...

Someone like DJ, GSP or Fedor.

I could see prime Aldo or Volk winning too if they're about the same size.

Islam barely beat volk the 1st time and is much bigger than volk
 
I honestly think the best chance is a leg based offense from a very powerful guy who just throws KO blow after KO blow until he lands. You likely don't land but nothing ends a fight faster than a headkick. Some TKD or MT guy who throws caution to the wind and just goes for it.
 
Let's see how Chimaev vs Whittaker goes. Usman as a wrestler boxer was also an interesting matchup. So was Gilbert Burns with his grappling threat to make it striking battle.

Jacare would have been interesting against a dagestan wrestler. Basically every elite BJJ guy with good striking would be. Unfortunately they usually don't have good striking.
Romero would have been interesting with his wrestling and power.
It would have been very tough for the Shogun/Mousasi/Pettis/Cerrone style with average takedown defense, but still I think they could have made it interesting by just going for it both from their back and on the feet. It's not like Khabib destroyed everyone on the ground. Some opponents were able to get back to the feet, they just got outpointed by repeatedly getting taken down again.
 
These 2 skillset along with a prime Robbie is all you need to be honest.
1722814342420.png

You need that Explosive RAW KNOCKOUT power of Tyron Woodley with the wrestling
defense of a prime usman & woodley. So if a top level Dagestanis do try for a take down
your fighter can easily stuff it or get right back up and can punish they azz.

This is exactly what would happen if islam or khabib faced a skillset like tyron or
usman.....

1722814767782.pngKhabib doesnt survive this from a fighter with the exact
explosive KO POWER of a Prime Tyron or robbie.
so good wrestling defense and RAW KO POWER. them Dagestanis are very Chinny.
i remember crazy al was doing his thing against Khabib...

Right here time stamped ALSO is where Woodley or Robbie lawler power skillset would SNIPE khabib.

Take down attempt followed by some major BOMBS and Khabib or Islam is DONE !!
now if you dont have Knockout Power then you need to be an endurance cardio freak like Prime Colby.
that can dish out relentless pressure.
1722814395835.png
 
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Alpha_T83 said:
I think two main things are needed to beat the Dagestanis:

#1 is exception discipline in terms of diet/fitness to cut the MAXIMUM amount of weight possible. These Dagestanis don't mess around with weight cutting. We've seen a lot of them miss weight as a result. GSP and Khabib were the same size, and yet Khabib fought at 155. It's no coincidence that Gleison Tibau almost beat Khabib -- Tibau is a weight cutting monster. I do think GSP could beat Khabib if GSP was the same age, as modern MMA weight cutting has evolved even from when GSP did it.

#2 obviously exceptional wrestling background. You need hard Greco Roman wrestling, and I would also say more MMA fighters need to train & compete in Sambo while developing their skills. Sambo mixes striking and takedowns in a way that even Greco Roman wrestling can't prepare people for. BJJ doesn't help that much beyond avoiding submissions.
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Yeah you make a good point regarding the weight cutting. Khabib at 170 would have dealt with different problems.

I wonder how Sambo is different, training method-wise to how modern MMA gyms train full sparring. It's clear that part of the Dagestanis' edge is mental. They looked a lot better after starting at AKA. But definitely something about their base/background seems to allow more fluid or quick transitions from one area to another.
 
Nothing has really changed since day one. When you have a superior wrestler with excellent cardio/pace theres going to be problems. Working on your takedown and sub defense usually won't be enough. You either have the necessary grappling skills to earn the other guys respect or you are praying you can stop his takedowns enough times to catch him with a punch and maybe to make him think twice about shooting again
 
SovereignPhantom said:
Yeah you make a good point regarding the weight cutting. Khabib at 170 would have dealt with different problems.

I wonder how Sambo is different, training method-wise to how modern MMA gyms train full sparring. It's clear that part of the Dagestanis' edge is mental. They looked a lot better after starting at AKA. But definitely something about their base/background seems to allow more fluid or quick transitions from one area to another.
Click to expand...
Honestly I think Sambo difference is just getting used to wrestling while being punch and kicked. That's it.

Some of the strategies they use in Greco Roman wrestling don't work as well when someone is trying to kick your legs and knock your teeth out. Don't under-estimate how important it is for a 23 year old to have spent 10 years wrestling and being used to getting punched in the face while doing so.
 
I feel like a skill set we are missing in modern MMA is a Crocop/Machida like fighter who can genuinely shut out grappling and punish on the counter.

A lot of modern fighters I feel they depend on using the cage and "just stand up" style tactics to make opponents give up on grappling rather than actually being able to stop it and a lot of the best Dagestini fighters I think exploit that by having the sub game that "just stand up" is tough vs them.
 
It’s insanely tough because what can you realistically do against a guy that’s going to take you down and smother you. Not only that he’s trained to do it since he’s been a kid and he can just as easily smash your face in as he can submit you. It’s literally impossible given the rule set to combat against.

The obvious thing would be to not get taken down but it’s clearly not easy. Not only that but the threat of that takedown is always there which will make your own game more tentative. Apart from a lucky ko on the feet there’s nothing much you can do.

It’ll take a genius coach to work it out but maybe it might not be figured out exactly how to deal with that style. Khabibs dad was a true genius that literally figured out an unbeatable style and trained his fighters that way.

In the end I just feel we’re going to have to somehow replicate that style in our younger fighters and hope to beat them at their own game. Literally think it’s the only way.
 
Cory developed an interesting blueprint and he's not even a wrestler. He looked like he was on the right track for the most part. Did a lot of things right. A few adjustments and that fight might have gone the other way.

Not sure if anyone has gifs of him cancelling Umars TD's, over and over again. It was very impressive to see. Maybe @KazDibiase or @Ladder Master have something on file..
 
I know this is a boring thing to say....but Umar/Usman are different from Islam who is different from Khabib.

Umar and his brother are naturally strikers, who worked hard on their wrestling when they made the transition to MMA. They became good wrestlers by training at Khabib's gym after they were already established martial artists. Yes, they wrestled as kids so they had a base, but were not stand outs or anything.

Corey lost to Umar because he couldn't out strike him. The fact that Corey didn't have the option of taking him down like he did against Jingliang was a factor, but people thinking that the problem with Umar is stopping his takedowns at the elite level are missing why he is good.
 
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Elite jab and elite TDD

Jab and run the entire fight conserving your energy in order to put everything you have into every grappling exchange

Only way to win is to make the fight incredibly boring
 
Not sure if its enough, but prime Aldo with his great striking and his crazy tdd would pose a threat.
 
GSP mixed with Chandler’s explosiveness and power
 
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