What skillset is needed to beat the top-level Dagestanis in their prime?

[SovereignPhantom]

Obviously I'm aware Islam has been KO'd and Khabib arguably lost to Tibau early on in his UFC career.

And I realize Khabib's team are exceptionally prepared, don't do short notice fights, etc.

But skill-wise, what will it take to beat them? Volk and Dustin both dropped or stunned Islam, Cory landed a really clean left yesterday that definitely hurt Umar. Yet this wasn't enough to win even with their exceptional grappling defense.

Arman has shown that offensive wrestling isn't enough to win (though, yes, he also fought short notice).

I'm thinking someone will need power in their hands and amazing offensive AND defensive grappling to stand a chance at winning more than just the rare lucky punch. But it just doesn't seem like this combo exists yet.

 

[Hassan Mouzine]

well striking wise they are defensively sound. the narrative that khabib was a 1 trick pony or that dagestani's are 'wrestlers' is wrong on so many levels. these guys are good everywhere and excell at grappling. you mentioned Islam being KO'd/dropped/stunned but Islam rarely gets hit. And the tko he suffered was a bit premature, it didnt look as if he couldnt intelligently defend himself. at the same time....the ref is there to protect the fighters and needs to make a decision in seconds.

what Im saying.......the gameplan to keep the fight standing as mucb as possivle and beat them on the feet is extremely hard as well because these guys can strike offensively and defensively AND have solid chins. thhey dont seem to have that many real weaknesses.

it is getting to the point of....if you cant beat them, join them. Abdulmanaps teachings will be copied, it has already started

 

[Through The Looking Glass]

It's going to take a new camp that is as good as the Dagestanis at training and preparing their fighters.

There have been other good camps/teams but they all fall apart or deteriorate over time. The Dagestanis are fully dedicated to this

 

[SovereignPhantom]

well striking wise they are defensively sound. the narrative that khabib was a 1 trick pony or that dagestani's are 'wrestlers' is wrong on so many levels. these guys are good everywhere and excell at grappling. you mentioned Islam being KO'd/dropped/stunned but Islam rarely gets hit. And the tko he suffered was a bit premature, it didnt look as if he couldnt intelligently defend himself. at the same time....the ref is there to protect the fighters and needs to make a decision in seconds.

what Im saying.......the gameplan to keep the fight standing as mucb as possivle and beat them on the feet is extremely hard as well because these guys can strike offensively and defensively AND have solid chins. thhey dont seem to have that many real weaknesses.

it is getting to the point of....if you cant beat them, join them. Abdulmanaps teachings will be copied, it has already started

Yeah seeing Dustin implement the leg control has been really entertaining.

And yeah there's no doubt that the best Dagestanis are very well-rounded, but they all have holes in areas, Khabib got hit quite a bit, he just had a block for a head and a thick neck. Islam and Umar don't have Khabib's top control. Yet no one has been able to match them even when they lose control in one area. They're just so adaptable it can be really frustrating when you're rooting for another fighter or just excited to see a potential upset lol.

 

[Davidjacksonjones]

We need someone super strong who does power lifting and can bench 315 lbs. So when the Dagestani wrestler is on top of them they can use their upper body strength to bench them off

 

[SovereignPhantom]

We need someone super strong who does power lifting and can bench 315 lbs. So when the Dagestani wrestler is on top of them they can use their upper body strength to bench them off

This must be it.

 

[SovereignPhantom]

It's going to take a new camp that is as good as the Dagestanis at training and preparing their fighters.

There have been other good camps/teams but they all fall apart or deteriorate over time. The Dagestanis are fully dedicated to this

Yeah this is probably the case. Ryan Hall and Craig Jones have done an incredible job dissecting what is needed to avoid getting subbed or controlled by them, but no one's been able to really put together a comprehensive plan to BEAT them anywhere.

I really thought after Dustin defended the first few takedowns against Islam, he'd at least be able to make it a dog fight against him. But the threat of the takedown makes it impossible for strikers to commit too heavily, and it's time to admit Islam's striking is scarily good on its own.

 

[Deleted member 504083]

 

[SovereignPhantom]

So you gotta be a once in a generation fighter? Damn.

 

[BJJ4Tone]

the narrative that khabib was a 1 trick pony or that dagestani's are 'wrestlers' is wrong on so many levels.

This x 1,000

 

[Hellowhosthat]

You need to fight like Eduard Vartanyan imo. Be a good striker, be great at get ups and separating, get them tired from failing to hold you down then knock them out. Here's a good example of him doing it.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Aikido

 

[World eater]

Reintroduce tournaments. They can’t prepare for 3 fights.

 

[Uber_Noober]

You need to fight like Eduard Vartanyan imo. Be a good striker, be great at get ups and separating, get them tired from failing to hold you down then knock them out. Here's a good example of him doing it.

He battered that dudes face into Bolivian

 

[Hellowhosthat]

He battered that dudes face into Bolivian

Here's him doing it to another guy who's not Dagi but has a very Dagi style.

 

[ForeverYoung]

If O'Malley can land some if the shots 5hat Sandhagen did he can put Umar out. Sandhagens main problem is he has no power in his hands what so ever.

 

[Conan the K-9]

Just have the same make them tired gameplan as they have. Be careful and really defensive, don’t let them be the one countering.
Easier said than done, but that works, unless they all are ramping up their cardio in just a few months like Umar just did.
He almost died from how out of breath he was in June in a three rounder and was now doing just fine in a good paced five rounder.

 

[aerius]

WEC or early UFC Aldo. Good luck trying to take him down without eating a flying knee.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I think my general takes on the keys to dealing with it from watching Varts a lot are.

1) Pressure, it's key to be coming forward as much as possible because then you can read the entries better. It also keeps your back away from the cage which is where Dagi style wrestlers excel.

2) Pummeling, when against the cage you want double unders to turn and disengage. If you can't get underhooks you must at least use the overhook as a strong pull to make sure you're pulling them up from under your hips to the upper body.

3) Keep your shoulders off the mat and do everything you can to avoid being flattened out, sit up and get grips under their crotch to make it hard for them to do the leg crossing stuff. When you work up ideally do it with your back against the cage to avoid giving them the back while you're on your knees as that's death against a good Dagi style grappler.

4. Its not so bad if they have your back standing but always make sure to be attacking the grips to spin out and away. Backpacking isn't something I've noticed many Dagis being great at so the threat of most jumping the back isn't that bad.

5. Cardio you've got to be able to maintain the output, whenever you get separation you have to be back on the pressure and back doing damage otherwise they'll just shoot again. You've got to stay close if possible as a lot of them are good at spin kicks so take the space away from that. Keep the volume up and eventually they'll start tiring but it might take a while because they usually have good cardio


So yeah, do all that and you might have a chance

 

[filthybliss]

Obviously I'm aware Islam has been KO'd and Khabib arguably lost to Tibau early on in his UFC career.

And I realize Khabib's team are exceptionally prepared, don't do short notice fights, etc.

But skill-wise, what will it take to beat them? Volk and Dustin both dropped or stunned Islam, Cory landed a really clean left yesterday that definitely hurt Umar. Yet this wasn't enough to win even with their exceptional grappling defense.

Arman has shown that offensive wrestling isn't enough to win (though, yes, he also fought short notice).

I'm thinking someone will need power in their hands and amazing offensive AND defensive grappling to stand a chance at winning more than just the rare lucky punch. But it just doesn't seem like this combo exists yet.

If Volk was a couple inches taller, he would have beaten Islam. I know that doesn't answer your question but being supremely well rounded is the best base for mma and for beating the "daegstani" cheat code.