What skillset is needed to beat the top-level Dagestanis in their prime?

SovereignPhantom said:
Yeah this is probably the case. Ryan Hall and Craig Jones have done an incredible job dissecting what is needed to avoid getting subbed or controlled by them, but no one's been able to really put together a comprehensive plan to BEAT them anywhere.

I really thought after Dustin defended the first few takedowns against Islam, he'd at least be able to make it a dog fight against him. But the threat of the takedown makes it impossible for strikers to commit too heavily, and it's time to admit Islam's striking is scarily good on its own.
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dustin definately improved his takedown defense, he basically looked as if he maximized his potential but still there was never a moment in the fight where I thought he was ahead. he just did much better than expected.
i felt a bit sorry for him that such a high level takedown by Islam at the end followed by a submission happened. it reeally was a thing of beauty but I think dustin is a cool dude and would have wished for him to lose a judges decision rather than Islam putting an exclemation point. 3 times finished in title fights is tough.

but then again......that takedown and finish were a beautiful ending to a competetive fight.

i really dont know what kind of gameplan there can be implemented to dethrone the dagestani's. they are smart as well....they will not keep on fighting like tony or bj when they are losing a step. they look beyond the life of fighting. i think copying their style is what will happen
 
filthybliss said:
If Volk was a couple inches taller, he would have beaten Islam. I know that doesn't answer your question but being supremely well rounded is the best base for mma and for beating the "daegstani" cheat code.
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Do you think anyone on the roster or in other orgs currently has the skillset and attributes to do more than just come close?

I honestly scored the first Volk fight for Volk but it was way too close.

I think Ilia has the IQ and skills to compete with Islam but if he got dropped by Jai Herbert, I can't say I'd bet on him at LW.
 
GrantB13 said:
Takedown defense and a knockout punch.
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As much as people hate on Conor and I personally dislike him as a public persona, he's got power at LW and did pretty well defending takedowns against Khabib early on. Obviously he cheated a shit ton but I do think that's a pretty good example of why precision/KO power seems to get nullified against such a relentless TD threat.
 
Hassan Mouzine said:
dustin definately improved his takedown defense, he basically looked as if he maximized his potential but still there was never a moment in the fight where I thought he was ahead. he just did much better than expected.
i felt a bit sorry for him that such a high level takedown by Islam at the end followed by a submission happened. it reeally was a thing of beauty but I think dustin is a cool dude and would have wished for him to lose a judges decision rather than Islam putting an exclemation point. 3 times finished in title fights is tough.

but then again......that takedown and finish were a beautiful ending to a competetive fight.

i really dont know what kind of gameplan there can be implemented to dethrone the dagestani's. they are smart as well....they will not keep on fighting like tony or bj when they are losing a step. they look beyond the life of fighting. i think copying their style is what will happen
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Yeah I think you make a great point that it's hard to outsmart them. Like early on Khabib and Islam both had issues in their UFC careers so it's clear that Abdulmanap's training alone wasn't enough to excel at the top. But after going to AKA they seem to have absorbed insights that make it nearly impossible to do more than make it a competitive fight, at least against the best of their competitors.
 
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Well, a few years ago everybody thought Gaethje was the solution, then we had confirmation that he forgot how to wrestle after transitioning to MMA.
 
SovereignPhantom said:
So you gotta be a once in a generation fighter? Damn.
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You're asking what it takes to beat Khabib and Islam, it's basically All time greats with elite wrestling/grappling and some good striking and cardio

Volk is arguably the greatest FW ever, if he was a true LW he would've likely beaten Islam.
 
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Here is a good example, Wilkinson vs Akhmedov at PFL 10 (2022).
You need to keep the distance and stay in the center of the cage throwing jabs and uppercuts. Good TDD and cardio are also essential.

 
I think you should counter the Jab.

Since they love to do the combo Jab+Takedown, khabib use it a lot, umar too, even Belal in his last figths. I think they drill that combo a lot.

Prevent the jabs are a really hard task, since is the fastest strike, but I think drilling counters to the jab are the way ( just like Sean did to Izzy)

Calf kicks are very important, since it weaken the explosiveness of those takedowns. Obviously they where very aware of it, that's why they're so good at catching kicks and counter with overhands, or a trip takedown.
So you need to be smart, kick the calf sometimes, then feint it and go to the head, like Question mark, or Brazilian kicks.

A lot of lateral movement are providential to face those guys too.

So, if I need to made a plan to face those dagestanis ( Umar, Khabib, Islam etc)
I would drill those 4 things
(1) counters on the jab- specially frontal elbows and uppercuts.
(2) Footwork- switch stances and lateral movement
(3) takedown defenses and stand ups
(4) kicks to the calf/head

But they are certainly a tough puzzle to solve.
 
benson henderson did it by dark souls style rolling out of every takedown / attempt to get it to the ground. and it worked pretty good. honestly, the dagestan fighter narrative is uncompelling and boring for MMA. I don't see one of those guys and want to root for them, or even against them. They are the new brazilians of MMA and I suspect they will have their time for quite a while. You can't beat wrestling if you don't have any, you need some sort of understanding. It's going to take a Shavkat type or Bo Nickal type to beat the dagestanis at this point. Fight fire with fire.
 
I think you have to make them work and trying to stand back up. You can't really play on the ground with them. Those fights with Volk, Dustin and even Cory showed that they will slow down a little. Also don't fight them in the UAE...

The chain wrestling stuff is mainly Khabib. The rest of the guys don't have the same pedigree or they are now fighting people who game planned for them properly.
 
I think two main things are needed to beat the Dagestanis:

#1 is exception discipline in terms of diet/fitness to cut the MAXIMUM amount of weight possible. These Dagestanis don't mess around with weight cutting. We've seen a lot of them miss weight as a result. GSP and Khabib were the same size, and yet Khabib fought at 155. It's no coincidence that Gleison Tibau almost beat Khabib -- Tibau is a weight cutting monster. I do think GSP could beat Khabib if GSP was the same age, as modern MMA weight cutting has evolved even from when GSP did it.

#2 obviously exceptional wrestling background. You need hard Greco Roman wrestling, and I would also say more MMA fighters need to train & compete in Sambo while developing their skills. Sambo mixes striking and takedowns in a way that even Greco Roman wrestling can't prepare people for. BJJ doesn't help that much beyond avoiding submissions.
 
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