"The overall ability has dropped in MMA" - Jon Fitch

[Jonny Ninja]

Khabib is a specialist.
There is obviously much larger talent today - especially in lighest weighclasses/WMMA, not that much in heavier divisions - but Fitch's point is that such talent is focusing his training in standup to content the promoter (casuals) while giving up training time in ground/grappling skills.

Some "especialists" from back in the day could have given Adesanya a way tougher time than his last tittle challengers. It's pretty telling btw that Adesanya - being a pure striker and undisputed champ - has barely faced an opponent with a heavy takedown gameplan

the better wrestlers are at WW. MW is currently striker heavy. Its tough to see who actually gives him a tough fight at the moment, which is a damn shame.

Khabib, Conor snd adesanya are all specialists and are elite fighters. That’s pretty rare these days imo. If you put a prime John Fitch in todays WW division, I think there’s a few guys that would beat him. And he was a solid no 2 to gsp for quite a while back in the day
There’s a lot more talent coming from Russia, Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, australasia than 10 years ago. Many of those regions bring different elements of MMA. It’s a much more global sport now, I just dont see how it has regressed. It’s the complete opposite

 

[BigDaddyChristopher]

But most fighters ended up on the ground so shouldn't you focus on that? Very few fights stay standing

Nooo ask Conor you don't need a good ground game.

 

[pankrat]

the better wrestlers are at WW. MW is currently striker heavy. Its tough to see who actually gives him a tough fight at the moment, which is a damn shame.

Khabib, Conor snd adesanya are all specialists and are elite fighters. That’s pretty rare these days imo. If you put a prime John Fitch in todays WW division, I think there’s a few guys that would beat him. And he was a solid no 2 to gsp for quite a while back in the day

The one I think would give him a tough fight helps Fitch's case about MMA being too much of a popularity contest, which has refflected in training and overall ability in MMA.

Mousasi left in a winning streak worthy of a tittle shot, a cautious fighter not that much of a draw despite his credentials, and to further support Fitch's case; he was even discouraged by his boss when dominated top competition in Thales Leites and Costas Pillipou with a grappling centric approach, the one he would most likely employ vs Israel; unlike any of his last opponents.
Weidman and Rockhold look past it, a good version of them would be legit threats imo

Jon Fitch would not be a solid #2 or established top5 as he was a decade ago. Yeah, the talent pool is larger. He would still be an elite gatekeeper, not champion material but capable of beating most WWs.
I do give prime GSP a pretty good chance vs Usman btw

 

[Calipwnia]

I totally disagree, some of the best guys like Anderson, or GSP would still do very well

Overall from top to bottom of the card, the ability has gone wayyyy up though

Even in the amateur, and lower level shows the guys look so much better than they used to, the sport has evolved a TON in the past 15 years

More money draws more athletes and talent. It’s pretty simple in my opinion.

 

[pankrat]

More money draws more athletes and talent. It’s pretty simple in my opinion.

It's obviously more complex than that which is actually Fitch's point; precisely related to money, and promoter's control of the game.
Besides, money was already there in prizefighting in heaviest weightlclasses by 2010; this has been the decade of the lighest talent and WMMA

 

[Calipwnia]

It's obviously more complex than that which is actually Fitch's point; precisely related to money, and promoter's control of the game.
Besides, money was already there in prizefighting in heaviest weightlclasses by 2010; this has been the decade of the lighest talent and WMMA

How many overall competitors from around the world, with better access to training, better knowledge of the sport and nutrition are there compared to 10 years ago? It’s exponential.

I understand Fitch’s point and he is right in a certain sense but he is completely wrong because look at Khabib and Kamaru Usman. They are very popular, grappling heavy and considered boring.
Fitch is projecting his own experience onto the whole community of mma. There are many examples of boring strikers too... not just grapplers Mr Jon Fitch. I’m sure Leon Edwards would whoop Jon Fitch’s ass and he is often considered boring and he is all striking and footwork.

It’s about being aggressive with a killer instinct that attracts fans, it doesn’t effect your success because of your boring style of point fighting.

 

[FloydMayweatherMMA]

He's kinda right, all you need to be champ now is a strong understanding of how to boot the hell out of your opponent's calf.

 

[aldeniro78]

He's right. Fighters aren't as well rounded as they used to be. The sport isn't what it used to be.

 

[pankrat]

How many overall competitors from around the world, with better access to training, better knowledge of the sport and nutrition are there compared to 10 years ago? It’s exponential.

I understand Fitch’s point and he is right in a certain sense but he is completely wrong because look at Khabib and Kamaru Usman. They are very popular, grappling heavy and considered boring.
Fitch is projecting his own experience onto the whole community of mma. There are many examples of boring strikers too... not just grapplers Mr Jon Fitch. I’m sure Leon Edwards would whoop Jon Fitch’s ass and he is often considered boring and he is all striking and footwork.

It’s about being aggressive with a killer instinct that attracts fans, it doesn’t effect your success because of your boring style of point fighting.

Out of all those "overal competitors around the world", hoy many really take the sport to a next level, particularly in heavier divisions?
No MW has emerged from Brazil, UK, Netherlands, Russia, Japan, Canada, Poland better than Anderson, Bisping, Mousasi, Shlemenko, Okami, Coté, Khalidov respectively, who were all around in 2010.
Yeah, Adesanya may be in a superior level then them...as he is in another level relative to his generation too. It doesnt apply to the "overall competitor".

Both Khabib and Usman are undefeated in UFC with 10+ winning streaks. No promoter can't deny that. Khabib is a genius and has a huge nation behind him.
Fitch was 13-1 in UFC at some point. Usman is even better, and just never lose, barely conceeds a single round.
Im not that sure Leon Edwards would whoop Jon Fitch. Did he "whoop" Cerrone? Maybe he does - he is top5 not a fringe top15 after all - but we've not seen enough from him facing elite wrestlers yet. Usman with 7 pro fights grinded him out btw

 

[Grappler111]

The first wrestler in ufc was in the cage in the UFC4. Wrestling is the dominant style but the president of the main pro federations is a striking fan like the 80% of usa fans (with no combat sport background). It is business non more sport...

 

[Ozze]

I totally disagree, some of the best guys like Anderson, or GSP would still do very well

Overall from top to bottom of the card, the ability has gone wayyyy up though

Even in the amateur, and lower level shows the guys look so much better than they used to, the sport has evolved a TON in the past 15 years

I think it's a bit of both. The lower and middle guys ate getting better faster but at the top level things are not moving that much. A top level guy from 15 years would be a top level guy today. But a lower level guy will come much more prepared than 15 years ago.

But I guess that's just normal. The learning curve always starts to flatten at some point.

 

[Calipwnia]

Out of all those "overal competitors around the world", hoy many really take the sport to a next level, particularly in heavier divisions?
No MW has emerged from Brazil, UK, Netherlands, Russia, Japan, Canada, Poland better than Anderson, Bisping, Mousasi, Shlemenko, Okami, Coté, Khalidov respectively, who were all around in 2010.
Yeah, Adesanya may be in a superior level then them...as he is in another level relative to his generation too. It doesnt apply to the "overall competitor".

Both Khabib and Usman are undefeated in UFC with 10+ winning streaks. No promoter can't deny that. Khabib is a genius and has a huge nation behind him.
Fitch was 13-1 in UFC at some point. Usman is even better, and just never lose, barely conceeds a single round.
Im not that sure Leon Edwards would whoop Jon Fitch. Did he "whoop" Cerrone? Maybe he does - he is top5 not a fringe top15 after all - but we've not seen enough from him facing elite wrestlers yet. Usman with 7 pro fights grinded him out btw

It’s hard to quantify “next level”. Are there new techniques? Maybe a few. Point is, in order to make it into the top 10 you must go through much more well rounded, knowledgeable and talented athletes just because of the sheer talent pool that is pursuing mma as a career vs in the past where it was a side job with very few full time fighters.

it’s true across almost all sports and life in general. There are very few exceptions to this rule and mma is not 1. Prime Fitch would lose 30-27 to current Edwards. And again. Edwards is not a grappler so his original point is mute. Fighters make the style, fighter pool is more dense than ever.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

Nooo ask Conor you don't need a good ground game.

Conor is a brown belt in BJJ....

 

[scoobster]

Okay buddy, two dominant wins over prime Alves, win over prime Sanchez, dominant wins over Okami and Shields & a 14-3-1 UFC Record. Yeah he totally sucks. Retard

glad you agree he sucks, wouldn't call him a retard though!

 

[DanAndroid]

If Kamaru moved up to 185 I think he would beat Israel, MW is just a little grapple light right now.

 

[pankrat]

It’s hard to quantify “next level”. Are there new techniques? Maybe a few. Point is, in order to make it into the top 10 you must go through much more well rounded, knowledgeable and talented athletes just because of the sheer talent pool that is pursuing mma as a career vs in the past where it was a side job with very few full time fighters.

it’s true across almost all sports and life in general. There are very few exceptions to this rule and mma is not 1. Prime Fitch would lose 30-27 to current Edwards. And again. Edwards is not a grappler so his original point is mute. Fighters make the style, fighter pool is more dense than ever.

It's true but you take it out of proportion in MMA. Very few full-time fighters by 2010? You must be talking about the state of WMMA and lighest weightclasses; definitely not WW and above. There is an established MMA professional circuit for big men since 25 years ago, let alone 10.

At this point, I'd say it's more of estrategical than technical edge in modern fighters; apart from athleticism, which is nott that much with PED restrictions. Weightcutting too...but is that fighting?

Skillwise, there is a notable evolution in standup fighting and some once in a generation talents as Jones (who was already on the rise in 2010) or Khabib but definitely less focus on grappling skill for the mere reason that is clearly less well-paid by the promoters. No wonder that most top fighters out of UFC are grappling especialists.

 

[pankrat]

Prime Fitch would lose 30-27 to current Edwards. And again. Edwards is not a grappler so his original point is mute. Fighters make the style, fighter pool is more dense than ever.

Not sure Edwards would have an easy time with Fitch as you assume based on what exactly? He has handled RDA, Nelson and Cerrone. All decisions, none of them a better wresters than Fitch, nor better conditioned. He could win, but you assume too much imo.

Anyways, if you give Edwards that much credit, I guess you'd favour against just about everyone at WW today except maybe the top3. I can still see Fitch grinding out many currently ranked WWs as Magny, Chiesa, RDA, Luque, Diaz, Pettis or even top5 Masvidal

 

[Jibsta69]

His kinda right but but can kinda go both ways since guys like Fitch or Jake Shields never improved their stand up one bit.

ufc is an entertainment business. They need to sell tickets. If your boring or uninteresting they will cut you once you become expendable. Not saying I agree with it fully but that’s just how it is.

 

[Mug]

I said this in a thread I made a few months ago about how the evolution of mma is a myth.

It's stagnant.

Ive always thought this its the same as Boxing and Muay Thai or any other sport it doesnt evolve everyone has the same tools, trends may change which dictate what we see more of but even the myth of the "MMA fighter who has trained MMA exclusively from young" is a myth because everyone has a preference or an area where they will be naturally better at

 

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

I think it's a bit of both. The lower and middle guys ate getting better faster but at the top level things are not moving that much. A top level guy from 15 years would be a top level guy today. But a lower level guy will come much more prepared than 15 years ago.

But I guess that's just normal. The learning curve always starts to flatten at some point.

What'd you mean by top level? I think the GOATs from 2005 would do well... Fedor, Hughes, Liddell... even though I don't think any of them would be champ with the exception of MAYBE Fedor

The top 5 of every division in the UFC currently, would shit on the top 5 of any division in 2005

Every expert in MMA would tell you the sport has evolved a ton since 2005, the sport doesn't even look the same, it's crazy some people on Sherdog don't see it