"The overall ability has dropped in MMA" - Jon Fitch

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

Ive always thought this its the same as Boxing and Muay Thai or any other sport it doesnt evolve everyone has the same tools, trends may change which dictate what we see more of but even the myth of the "MMA fighter who has trained MMA exclusively from young" is a myth because everyone has a preference or an area where they will be naturally better at

Boxing, and Muay Thai have a very limited rule set and have both been around forever so there has been a lot more time to innovate

That being said Boxing has definitely evolved

Jiu Jitsu has evolved a TON in the past 10 years because it is a younger sport, the top guys in BJJ now would murder the top guys from 15 years ago

 

[Necrosis]

I said this in a thread I made a few months ago about how the evolution of mma is a myth.

It's stagnant.

So Rich Franklin, Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes and Tim Sylvia in their prime. Is as good p4p as Jon Jones, Stipe Miocic, Israel Ardesanya and Khabib Nurrmagomedog p4p?

 

[Hotei]

I think a pretty good argument can be made for this. I think people way overblow how much mma has improved in the last 15 years.

Yeah.
Fighters are better at playing the rules but their skillset is not really changed. Their athletic abilities are actually declining (because of USADA).

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

I said this in a thread I made a few months ago about how the evolution of mma is a myth.

It's stagnant.

Absolutely, biggest myth in the sport.

 

[pankrat]

What'd you mean by top level? I think the GOATs from 2005 would do well... Fedor, Hughes, Liddell... even though I don't think any of them would be champ with the exception of MAYBE Fedor

The top 5 of every division in the UFC currently, would shit on the top 5 of any division in 2005

Every expert in MMA would tell you the sport has evolved a ton since 2005, the sport doesn't even look the same, it's crazy some people on Sherdog don't see it

Fitch is talking about the evolution in later years, relative to the standards set by their (Swick, Fitch, GSP) generation, which peaked around 2010 rather than 2005.

According to him - the promoters has taken increasing control over the sport in recent years and standup fighting is heavily rewarded, which lead to a drop in grappling skill at the highest level.

GSP would be the toughest test to date for Usman imo
Prime Silva is a legit threat to Adesanya
Jon Jones was already on the rise by 2010
Cain is arguably the best HW to date in peak form

According to Matt Hume there is only a few talents by generation that really take the sport to the next level. There is obviously more depth at every stage; whether if it's gatekeeper or journeyman status, and overall more well-rounded fighters.

WMMA and lightest weightclasses have evolved a lot in recent years as money finally flow there. Comparately to the big men during Pride heyday.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

What'd you mean by top level? I think the GOATs from 2005 would do well... Fedor, Hughes, Liddell... even though I don't think any of them would be champ with the exception of MAYBE Fedor

The top 5 of every division in the UFC currently, would shit on the top 5 of any division in 2005

Every expert in MMA would tell you the sport has evolved a ton since 2005, the sport doesn't even look the same, it's crazy some people on Sherdog don't see it

Hughes would be WW champ today.
Size, cardio and strength to match Usman and Colby. What he lacks slightly in striking he more than makes ups in being the superior submission artist.

 

[pankrat]

Hughes would be WW champ today.
Size, cardio and strength to match Usman and Colby. What he lacks slightly in striking he more than makes ups in being the superior submission artist.

No way, man. They would be big favourites over Hughes and would probably piece him up. As GSP did.

GSP vs Usman/Colbi is another story. Hughes is from a previous generation and the gap in training knowledge is way bigger. He still could beat modern ranked WWs in favourable matchups imo but I actually give prime Sakuraba a better chance vs the elite at WW.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

Boxing, and Muay Thai have a very limited rule set and have both been around forever so there has been a lot more time to innovate

That being said Boxing has definitely evolved

Jiu Jitsu has evolved a TON in the past 10 years because it is a younger sport, the top guys in BJJ now would murder the top guys from 15 years ago

I disagree and agree. Yeah the sport has evolved but bjj was for self defense. As the sport has evolved the self defense aspect has regressed. There's tons of things that work in a bjj match under their rule set that don't really transfer into a real fight.

I applauded eddie bravo for combat jj. I think with the addition of open palm strikes things like leg locks won't be as successful. Some of these more intricate guards won't be as successful.

 

[KID Yamamoto]

For Welter? In some aspects sure. But Middleweight is a division that has caught up the the quality Silva was putting out IMO.

 

[GoshiShun17]

Timestamped

Cliffs:

- Fighters focus much more in the stand-up so are less technically sound than used to be. A lot of the ground and grappling stuff has been abandoned for the show of standup and being flashy.

- Fighters who you can take down and put in bad positions pretty easily because they are just not used to opposition doing it

- There are a lot of guys who have shorter careers because they focus too much in the standup

- "If we (him and Swick) were to come up a this time, we could have been as succesful technically...but at the same time, if you don't sell tickets the way the promoter wants, the promoter has much more control over fighters nowadays. You literally need a certain number of social media followers to even get signed"

I don't entirely agree but as a leading fighter of one of the leading MMA gyms in the world, Fitch's opinion definitely holds weight.
More so because its not just talk, Fitch testesd his ability against the elite across two decades; very arguably beat the Bellator champion just a year ago

Adesanya's championship run seems to support Fitch's case too. How is that such a pure striker didnt face a single challenger with a heavy takedown gameplan?

What about Usman??? This idea is shite. Tell Fitch to keep his boring opinions to himself. Matter of fact shame on you TS for trying to use Adesanya as an example.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

No way, man. They would be big favourites over Hughes and would probably piece him up. As GSP did.

GSP vs Usman/Colbi is another story. Hughes is from a previous generation and the gap in training knowledge is way bigger. He still could beat modern ranked WWs in favourable matchups imo but I actually give Sakuraba a better chance vs the elite at WW.

I don't see how Colby beats him. Prime Hughes ragdolls him. He will double legs him and have Colby on his back all fight. Colby being a smaller WW and Hughes being a huge WW with better ground skills and probably a better gas tank. The only did Colby has is to keep it standing and I don't see how Colby does it.

Usman is bigger so he might, might be able to defend Hughes TDs.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

So Rich Franklin, Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes and Tim Sylvia in their prime. Is as good p4p as Jon Jones, Stipe Miocic, Israel Ardesanya and Khabib Nurrmagomedog p4p?

Jon is GOAT.
Prime Big Tim has the length and boxing to beat Stipe. Tim had one of the best jabs in all of mma and cardio for a huge guy. They only other time we saw Stipe fight someone taller and longer than him he got knocked out by Struve.
I already said I believe Hughes could be champ today.
Prime BJ definitely could beat Khabib. I'm not saying he will. But he definitely has the stand up advantage and probably has the second best TDD in mma history behind Aldo.
I favor Izzy over Rich but I guarantee you Rich puts up a way better fight then Costa.

 

[pankrat]

For Welter? In some aspects sure. But Middleweight is a division that has caught up the the quality Silva was putting out IMO.

Maybe for Israel. and Whittaker or even Weidman or Rockhold during their championship runs.
For Costa, Cannonier; Kelvin or Till; I dont think they represent such evolution from prime Belfort, Henderson, Sonnen or Bisping. More focus in striking than grappling but not necesarilly better MMA fighters.

I disagree wth Fitch; I do think that the overall ability has increased, but I agree is more of a tactical than technical evolution at this point, particularly in the heavier male divisions

 

[pankrat]

What about Usman??? This idea is shite. Tell Fitch to keep his boring opinions to himself. Matter of fact shame on you TS for trying to use Adesanya as an example.

Not sure what you mean but you definitely didnt get the point.

btw this is not about agreeing with Fitch or not. He makes a point, he is more than a qualified voice to speak about the matter as fought in the elite of MMA across two decades and is a standout of one of the leading MMA gyms of his generation....

lol at "tell Fitch to keep his boring opinions to himself" when you are reading thousands of shertard garbage in all kinds of bizarre threads in a daily basis xD

 

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

Fitch is talking about the evolution in later years, relative to the standards set by their (Swick, Fitch, GSP) generation, which peaked around 2010 rather than 2005.

According to him - the promoters has taken increasing control over the sport in recent years and standup fighting is heavily rewarded, which lead to a drop in grappling skill at the highest level.

GSP would be the toughest test to date for Usman imo
Prime Silva is a legit threat to Adesanya
Jon Jones was already on the rise by 2010
Cain is arguably the best HW to date in peak form

According to Matt Hume there is only a few talents by generation that really take the sport to the next level. There is obviously more depth at every stage; whether if it's gatekeeper or journeyman status, and overall more well-rounded fighters.

WMMA and lightest weightclasses have evolved a lot in recent years as money finally flow there. Comparately to the big men during Pride heyday.

I don't really disagree too much with anything in this, definitely interesting points made

I think there's definitely more emphasis on the standup now mainly because more and more of the wrestling/grappling technique is out there, and people have started to realize it's easier to stop takedowns, and standup, rather than get takedowns, and hold people down. Also you get stood up every 5 min. (which is BS imo)

Grappling used to be more effective not because it was higher level then, but because now pretty much everyone is a decent wrestler meaning the overall level has gone up

Again, if you're talking about GSP, Anderson, Jon Jones (obviously) would still do super well... I think GSP and Andy would have a great chance to beat Usman, and Izzy, but if you compare the top 5-10 of each division, the guys around now are clearly better. Plus 10 years isn't that long honestly, I mean Fitch JUST retired.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

Absolutely, biggest myth in the sport.

Back in the day if you wanted to learn striking you had to find a striking gym (boxing, MT, kickboxing, etc). You were going to become proficient in that art. Same with BJJ, wrestling, etc. If you wanted to become good at MMA you were forced to travel to different gyms and be good at that individual aspect.

Now you got cookie cutter gyme offering everything but the instruction imo isn't as good. I train at one of the better BJJ gyms in Chicago. They offer boxing and MT there too but imo their striking instruction falls severely behind the grappling instruction.
Now I know I few places like Portage Park MT has high level MT and kickboxing instruction but they offer BJJ classes to. You think their BJJ classes are on par with my gyms BJJ instructions? You'd be out of your mind to think so. And I would be out of my mind to believe we have better striking instruction than Portage Park MT.

I think when people say "evolved" they mean well rounded. That I can agree with. But it's all cookie cutter nowadays. But if they say the striking is better nowadays or the grappling is then I call BS.

Jan, who is from the old generation, just won the LHW title over a new generation guy. Knocked him senseless.

What I do think that has consistently improved is nutrition and training methods. You don't hear about gym wars anymore like we use to. Hell people, like Robbie Lawler when he was champ, don't even heavy spar anymore. They realize the risk/reward isn't worth it.

Anyway I'm just rambling now. Just my 2 cents. Point is back in the day you had to learn boxing at a dedicated boxing gym and BJJ at a dedicated bjj school. Now we got all in one that seems better but in my opinion isn't.

 

[GoshiShun17]

lol at "tell Fitch to keep his boring opinions to himself" when you are reading thousands of shertard garbage in all kinds of bizarre threads in a daily basis xD

You are right and I will continue to listen to the "boring opinions" of Jon Fitch as well because I recall his knowledge. But I think it's silly you tie Israel into this.

He would shut a guy like Fitch all the way down.

 

[arcadeperfect]

No surprise that he supports the same boring style that no one wants to watch. Fighters have become much better at defending against that crap. Holloway has great grappling defense, as does Whittaker, and Adesanya. Fitch's weight class is ruled by a guy who has the lame style he's promoting ffs.

 

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

I disagree and agree. Yeah the sport has evolved but bjj was for self defense. As the sport has evolved the self defense aspect has regressed. There's tons of things that work in a bjj match under their rule set that don't really transfer into a real fight.

I applauded eddie bravo for combat jj. I think with the addition of open palm strikes things like leg locks won't be as successful. Some of these more intricate guards won't be as successful.

All martial arts on some level is for self defense, we are talking about sport. You think the top BJJ guys now don't know self defense? Most of that stuff is white belt basic shit

I think about 20% of sport BJJ techniques won't work in MMA, but that can be said about every art including Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, etc.

Wait till some of these modern BJJ guys like Garry Tonon, and Neiman Gracie continue going in MMA, they're proving the new innovations in leg locks absolutely work in MMA

Ironically Neiman Gracie just finished JON FITCH with a Heel Hook

 

[arcadeperfect]

This blanket never learned how to strike wtf is he talking about. The most evolved fighters are right now by far.

The lame guys always like to pick on stuff that they can't do. Usman is the champion of his weight class, WW has always been grapple heavy anyways so it just sounds like sour grapes from him. Striking is a fundamental part of fighting, not everyone is interested in being lame.