"The overall ability has dropped in MMA" - Jon Fitch

[L0ki]

I think the last big evolution we saw was Lyoto tying in Shotokan to your standard BJJ, muay thai, boxing, etc. base.

It seemed like the natural progression was to have all the basics and then add something else, and that would put you above the opposition becusae they wouldn't know what to do with the new element.

No one has really come along and added a wild new element since.

 

[Gi Choke]

Didnt this ass piss hot too? Stfu

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

Every art takes a lifetime to learn.

But only wrestling dominates MMA so much

 

[Feardafighta1126]

This blanket never learned how to strike wtf is he talking about. The most evolved fighters are right now by far.

Gsp put a stand up clinic on him

 

[pankrat]

Okay buddy, two dominant wins over prime Alves, win over prime Sanchez, dominant wins over Okami and Shields & a 14-3-1 UFC Record. Yeah he totally sucks. Retard

Don't forget him killing the Erick Silva hype train (Silva did look like a pretty good fighter at the time). He only lost to prime GSP, prime Hendricks (who could KO anyone) and Maia, who was a beast when he first dropped to WW. And Maia couldn't sub him.

13-1 in UFC at some point.
Fitch dominated the arguably three best Brazilian WWs of his era - in between Pele Landi and Maia - in Alves, Paulo Thiago and Erick Silva.
Diego Sanchez in his prime was a formidable opponent. BJ Penn was too.
Hironaka and Gono were very well respected in Japan.
Beating Okami, Shields, taking the WSOF belt and a draw with Bellator champ Rory are great late career accomplishments

 

[The Chosen]

I don’t really get how he could think this, just like Matt Hughes destroyed Royce Gracie, the current top fighters would demolish Matt Hughes, guys were just way too one dimensional back then.

 

[pTw]

When you have the current mw champ and ex mw champ facing off and the ex mw champ takes a round from the current mw champ even though the ex mw champ is old as fuck at 43, it's not crazy to believe that last generations fighters were better than the current generation. Just saying sherbros.

 

[pankrat]

I don’t really get how he could think this, just like Matt Hughes destroyed Royce Gracie, the current top fighters would demolish Matt Hughes, guys were just way too one dimensional back then.

There is a world of difference between Royce Gracie and the top guys in 2010. The evolution has not been even remotely close as big in the last decade as it was during 1995-2005 in heavier weightclasses. Such evoution rather took place in WMMA and lighest divisions this past decade.
Not to mention Hughes destroyed a 40 years old Royce.

2010 GSP would have a solid chance of beating Usman
2010 Silva would have a solid chance vs Adesanya
Jon Jones was already on the rise in 2010
2010 Caín would have a solid chance vs Miocic

 

[The Chosen]

There is a world of difference between Royce Gracie and the top guys in 2010. The evolution has not been even remotely close as big in the last decade as it was during 1995-2005 in heavier weightclasses.
You are pretty clueless if you don't see this. Not to mention Hughes destroyed a 40 years old Royce.

2010 GSP would have a solid chance of beating Usman
2010 Silva would have a solid chance vs Adesanya
Jon Jones was already on the rise in 2010
2010 Caín would have a solid chance vs Miocic

Yeah but that’s GSP, I would say GSP was the first true mixed martial artist and probably the most complete fighter to ever live. I think if you actually look at who are the most successful it is clear that evolution has indeed occurred in the past 10 years, all the current champions only have like one loss or are undefeated entirely, that wasn’t a reality in 2010.

 

[pankrat]

Yeah but that’s GSP, I would say GSP was the first true mixed martial artist .

This is plain false. A guy who emeged from Canada in early 2000s was not "the first true mixed martial artist" it's actually a ridiculous thing to say.

...And I gave examples in every single division above LW, not just GSP.

I think if you actually look at who are the most successful it is clear that evolution has indeed occurred in the past 10 years

It has occurred. Not even close as much as it did in the 90s, or even 2000s.
At least in the heavier male divisions, for the simple reason that there was already money in prize fighting in those weights back then, unlike in lightest divisions and WMMA, which is where the evolution has mostly taken place in the last decade

 

[The Chosen]

This is plain false. A guy who emeged from Canada in early 2000s was not "the first true mixed martial artist" it's actually a ridiculous thing to say.

...And I gave examples in every single division above LW, not just GSP.



It has occurred. Not even close as much as it did in the 90s, or even 2000s.
At least in the heavier male divisions, for the simple reason that there was already money in prize fighting in those weights back then, unlike in lightest divisions and WMMA, which is where the evolution has mostly taken place in the last decade

Before GSP, fighters were BJJ specialists, strikers, wrestlers, etc. People make fun of the idea of younger people only training MMA and how they haven’t been successful, but GSP was quite literally only an MMA fighter, he could do everything and was the best. You could say HW and LHW have devolved or stayed static, but I would disagree.

 

[pankrat]

Before GSP, fighters were BJJ specialists, strikers, wrestlers, etc. People make fun of the idea of younger people only training MMA and how they haven’t been successful, but GSP was quite literally only an MMA fighter, he could do everything and was the best. You could say HW and LHW have devolved or stayed static, but I would disagree.

By early 2000s were already plenty of professional multidisciplinary MMA gyms around the world - especially in Brazil, USA and Japan - with young well-rounded talent coming from there. A gym in Montreal was not the first one.

If you think everyone before GSP were BJJ specialists, strikers, wrestlers, you don't know what you are talking about man, simple as that.

I don't think it has devolved. Just saying that the evolution has rather stagnated in heavier weightclasses relative to 2010, and it has taken place rather in a tactical than technical aspect. Fitch also has a point in that fighters focus too much in standup these days to content the promoters, leading to certain drop in overall grappling ability in MMA.

WMMA and lighest divisions have indeed evolved a lot this past decade, just like heaviest male divisions did two decades ago. For the ovious reason: money.

 

[The Chosen]

By early 2000s were already plenty of professional multidisciplinary MMA gyms around the world - especially in Brazil, USA and Japan - with young well-rounded talent coming from there. A gym in Montreal was not the first one.

If you think everyone before GSP were BJJ specialists, strikers, wrestlers, you don't know what you are talking about man, simple as that.

I don't think it has devolved. Just saying that the evolution has rather stagnated in heavier weightclasses relative to 2010, and it has taken place rather in a tactical than technical aspect. Fitch also has a point in that fighters focus too much in standup these days to content the promoters, leading to certain drop in overall grappling ability in MMA.

WMMA and lighest divisions have indeed evolved a lot this past decade, just like heaviest male divisions did two decades ago. For the ovious reason: money.

I agree with the emphasis on striking being bad, someone like Jorge Masvidal or Darren Till who are severely overrated got pushed because they were strikers. GSP actually was apart of several of the early MMA gyms in the US, like Greg Jackson’s. GSP was already an established pro before he started to be exclusive with Firas Zahabi at Tristar.

 

[mkt]

There is a world of difference between Royce Gracie and the top guys in 2010. The evolution has not been even remotely close as big in the last decade as it was during 1995-2005 in heavier weightclasses. Such evoution rather took place in WMMA and lighest divisions this past decade.
Not to mention Hughes destroyed a 40 years old Royce.

2010 GSP would have a solid chance of beating Usman
2010 Silva would have a solid chance vs Adesanya
Jon Jones was already on the rise in 2010
2010 Caín would have a solid chance vs Miocic

And once again I'll say the biggest evolution in the last 10-15 years is at LW and below, in divisions that may not have existed or were only in WEC at the time. A very motivated, prime BJ Penn might be able to hang with some of the Top 5 current LWs due to his skills and natural abilities, but I can't think of any other LWs from that era who would do well now.

MW, LHW and HW are very different stories. WW kind of depends. There's probably more talent now than ever, but I'd still pick 2009 GSP over anyone, and prime Hendricks and Lawler would still be beasts.

 

[pankrat]

And once again I'll say the biggest evolution in the last 10-15 years is at LW and below, in divisions that may not have existed or were only in WEC at the time. A very motivated, prime BJ Penn might be able to hang with some of the Top 5 current LWs due to his skills and natural abilities, but I can't think of any other LWs from that era who would do well now.

MW, LHW and HW are very different stories. WW kind of depends. There's probably more talent now than ever, but I'd still pick 2009 GSP over anyone, and prime Hendricks and Lawler would still be beasts.

I think there is generally more depth at every realm. Gatekeeper caliber fighters from 10-15 years ago could retain their gatekeeper status within today standards...but there are many more athletes at that level than back in the day. Fitch would be a gatekeeper today, and hover around top5-10. Could even get a tittle shot with some favourable match ups, but no way he sits in the #2 spot for years as he did in his time.

Same for the championship caliber elite, Anderson or GSP could still beat everybody today but they could get beat by many more fighters too.
Some few fighters each generation truly take the sport to the next level imo. Jones did, Khabib is doing, maybe Adesanya has the potential to do so.

 

[Ruthless Ryan]

The reality is that if all mma fighters fought like Fitch there prob wouldnt be mma at all. I appreciate he perfected a certain style but if he was a promoter would he sign guys like himself and shields to put fans in the seats?

 

[Ajax41]

Timestamped

Cliffs:

- Fighters focus much more in the stand-up so are less technically sound than used to be. A lot of the ground and grappling stuff has been abandoned for the show of standup and being flashy.

- Fighters who you can take down and put in bad positions pretty easily because they are just not used to opposition doing it

- There are a lot of guys who have shorter careers because they focus too much in the standup

- "If we (him and Swick) were to come up a this time, we could have been as succesful technically...but at the same time, if you don't sell tickets the way the promoter wants, the promoter has much more control over fighters nowadays. You literally need a certain number of social media followers to even get signed"

I don't entirely agree but as a leading fighter of one of the leading MMA gyms in the world, Fitch's opinion definitely holds weight.
More so because its not just talk, Fitch testesd his ability against the elite across two decades; very arguably beat the Bellator champion just a year ago

Fitch advocating for a boring ass style of MMA even in retirement. He’s probably cate stand exciting fight like the one we saw this weekend.

 

[pankrat]

Why, I once watched “Gentleman” Jim Corbett fight an Eskimo fellow bare-knuckled for a hundred and thirteen rounds! Of course, back then, if a fight lasted less than fifty rounds, we demanded our nickel back!

Gotta love nostalgia

Jim Corbett vs Peter Jackson back in 1891 was surely a pretty high level boxing match. Especially relative to the standards of 1901.

Because Fitch is talking about the evolution in this past decade, not a century ago, mind you.

 

[Mug]

Boxing, and Muay Thai have a very limited rule set and have both been around forever so there has been a lot more time to innovate

That being said Boxing has definitely evolved

Jiu Jitsu has evolved a TON in the past 10 years because it is a younger sport, the top guys in BJJ now would murder the top guys from 15 years ago

Thats true but that could also just be done to increasing popularity so more people start which means more talented guys and better competition, the game has definitely evolved but as I said from now it is most likely going to be trends like leglock game was extremely popular and then once people wise up and the defence is too good the trend will change which we kinda see from Gordon since hes taking everyones backs
I cant imagine more "moves" or positions will come around because theyve already been done, maybe developed but with the nature of BJJ just about every position is used

 

[moreorless87]

Ehhhh...most camps have figured out best practices in the cage to nullify most dominant, super-technical grapplers.

You don't need to become an expert to know how to avoid getting into certain bad positions.

The fights always start standing, so stand up should be the most important part of your game.

Look at Gilbert Burns. His career took off in the past 18 months because he improved his stand up drastically and moved up to a division were he has a massive speed advantage.

I would say that actually its the Jon Fitch style of dull positional grappling thats led to MMA becoming more stand up focused.

The weakness of this style of fighting is that it has no bite to it, no real submission or GnP threat and fighters progressively realised this meant you could counter it with alot of quite cheap tactics. Fighters these days arent afraid to use alot of ground escapes like giving up their back becuase they know their opponents don't really have the skill to threaten them.

As I'v said before I think khabib is the reaper of cheap grappling escapes, when guys use cheap tactics against him he has the counters needed, they use the cage to fight of single legs? he gets a body lock and drags them off it, they give up their backs to stand up and he makes their carry weight, takes them back down or subs them.

But Khabib is rare in MMA these days and when grappling in so much of MMA lacks teeth it will never be as important as it was in the past.