Shelling Up = Intellegent Defense?

No. Nor has it ever been.

Turtling up and covering yourself is an involuntarily action out of desperation. It's not even slightly intelligent. It's your last resort from taking more punishment that you already can't handle.

You're basically saying, I'm way too fucked up to do anything else so I'm going to just curl and cover up so I don't get hit anymore.
 
Kneeuinthenutz said:
No. Nor has it ever been.

Turtling up and covering yourself is an involuntarily action out of desperation. It's not even slightly intelligent. It's your last resort from taking more punishment that you already can't handle.

You're basically saying, I'm way too fucked up to do anything else so I'm going to just curl and cover up so I don't get hit anymore.
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^^^ None of this is what Faber did, though. And I'm not a fan of the guy, but he was stuck in a bad spot and defended the way you must.

It's like saying If a guy takes your back the fight is clearly over. Having your back taken shows you can't intelligently defend yourself.
 
Its not shelling up that got it stopped, it shelling up and then not moving.

In the time Barao threw 15 shots at his head, Faber went from flat face down, to face down but on his knees, but once there he made no other effort to better his position.

I would love to see a comparison between this stoppage and Cain Bigfoot II.
 
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Kneeuinthenutz said:
You're basically saying, I'm way too fucked up to do anything else so I'm going to just curl and cover up so I don't get hit anymore.
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Thats not the intelligent way to recover from being stunned?

Go ahead, tell me a more intelligent way...

Or in your mind does stunned = fight over, regardless if the aggressor can follow up?
 
I believe ever fighter should have a whiteboard marker in their shorts. If they can take this marker out during a fight and write their initials in the back of their opponent's head, they should win the fight

I'm sick of turtling and other defences (like putting your hand down to stop knees) which just abuse the rules
 
HIMBOB said:
Its not shelling up that got it stopped, it shelling up and then not moving.

In the time Barao threw 15 shots at his head, Faber went from flat face down, to face down but on his knees, but once there he failed made no other effort to better his position.

I would love to see a comparison between this stoppage and Cain Bigfoot II.
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So you are saying that Faber CLEARLY bettered his position, as you asked for... but then once he got to the point where he had to either expose himself or wait till his opponent needed to change positions, that his ONLY option at that point was to expose himself?
 
Dessyboy said:
I believe ever fighter should have a whiteboard marker in their shorts. If they can take this marker out during a fight and write their initials in the back of their opponent's head, they should win the fight

I'm sick of turtling and other defences (like putting your hand down to stop knees) which just abuse the rules
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putting a hand down to get out of knees is completely different then covering up with a defensive guard.

Lets not compare the two.

One is to bend the rules. The other is to defend yourself without bending any rules.
 
MilesAbove said:
^^^ None of this is what Faber did, though. And I'm not a fan of the guy, but he was stuck in a bad spot and defended the way you must.

It's like saying If a guy takes your back the fight is clearly over. Having your back taken shows you can't intelligently defend yourself.
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How many punches were thrown after Faber stopped moving???
 
I'm totally okay with guys who purposfully turtle getting hit in the back of the head. It's def not that same as someone striking you in the back of the head during standing (like you get rocked and turn and the duder just blasts you in the back of the neck).

But Faber literally did the best thing to do given his position. Barao was tiring himself out somewhat, and could either continue to waste time on the arm-shots or reposition. Faber not only had a leg but gave a thumbs up.

It was a bad stoppage. Herb Dean circa 2006 showed up last night, and it is unfortunate. Over the last 3-4 years he really made me eat my words on how bad he was as a ref back then. I can forgive this one offense because he's been so solid... but goodness me, it was a bad stoppage.

HIMBOB said:
How many punches were thrown after Faber stopped moving???
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How many hit his hand/arm, you mean? Or how many hit his hand an arm while he was giving a thumbs up?

Should we just stop fights when guys are locked in a tight sub, even if they give a thumbs up?
 
jamesgalb said:
So you are saying that Faber CLEARLY bettered his position, as you asked for... but then once he got to the point where he had to either expose himself or wait till his opponent needed to change positions, that his ONLY option at that point was to expose himself?
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He was in a shitty position, but he needed to turn in, (away wouldn't work as his arm was between Baraos legs).

Yes he bettered his position from literally the stand out worst position you can be in in a fight. Face down and flat out.

So yes he pulled his knees up but then he just stopped moving. So after being dropped how many times, and ending up face down and flat out he tucked his knees up, covered his head and just ate punches with literally no end in sight (he wasn't moving).
 
HIMBOB said:
He was in a shitty position, but he needed to turn in, (away wouldn't work as his arm was between Baraos legs).

Yes he bettered his position from literally the stand out worst position you can be in in a fight. Face down and flat out.

So yes he pulled his knees up but then he just stopped moving. So after being dropped how many times, and ending up face down and flat out he tucked his knees up, covered his head and just ate punches with literally no end in sight (he wasn't moving).
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he didnt eat punches. He blocked them. You are using factually incorrect points in your argument to make it seem like he was out and or done.

He was not out or done. And he was not eating any punches since adjusting his position. So you stop the fight? lol
 
jamesgalb said:
(Update 3: Quote 1: "Why should someone be allowed to just chill and recover?" Quote 2: "If your opponent can just chill and recover, why on earth should the fight be stopped? If all you're doing is tiring yourself out, you're doing the wrong thing." - And that is exactly why the fight shouldn't be stopped)
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Same reason boxers cant turn their back , same reason it should be stopped.
 
To me there's a big difference between the guys who are trying to roll with and block the punches that are coming at them while on the ground and someone who gets hurt and just covers up.
Fighters have to improve their position. Laying there and giving a thumbs up using the hand that is supposedly going for a single leg isn't that
 
No, turtling up or being in a fetal position is not an intelligent defense. Would like it to be standard for the ref to tell the guy he must improve his position or escape and give him a few seconds to do so before stopping the fight though.
 
MilesAbove said:
How many hit his hand/arm, you mean? Or how many hit his hand an arm while he was giving a thumbs up?

Should we just stop fights when guys are locked in a tight sub, even if they give a thumbs up?
Click to expand...

I couldn't see the thumbs up so i can't say.

And I agree most hit his arms, maybe some got through maybe none, but when you are getting punched and not moving it doesn't matter.


I am going to see if I can find someone who has posted a gif of the finish.

If you are defending a sub you aren't getting punched usually.

Also How many times had Barao dropped Faber already before this exchange?
I don't think anyone knew how hurt he was, but Faber is experienced enogh to kow better so i am thinking he was hurt pretty bad.

If this was off a sprawled takedown attempt it would be a somewhat different situ but even then if you are getting hit and not moving ie making no effort to change the status quo the fight will get stopped.
 
jamesgalb said:
How many landed on more than arm?
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Cause the back of the head is illegal, so are knees, soccer kicks or hits to the spine. Again same reasoning as a boxer turning away from the fight if you are only leaving illegal areas open and not doing anithing to improve your position.

Still Faber couldnt do anithing from those hammer fists good stoppage.
 
There is a difference between laying on the ground covering your head, and protecting yourself.

If this question is in regards to Faber, he was hurt, but, his head was not moving from the shots on the ground, his arm was taking the brunt of it, and he was recovering.

A fight should be TKO stopped when the fighter's head is repeatedly moved by a strike (or repeated body shots are landing etc).

Faber simply wasn't taking damage (once he was on the ground) - he took some hella big shots which put him there, but, he was recovering.

To put it into a stand up example, if a windmill fighter like Wanderlay just threw hooks to the side of someone's head and their arms were up the whole time, and he never landed a shot... you wouldn't stop the fight no matter how many he threw, UNLESS the fighter's head started moving around and damage was occurring.

Same thing, yes?
 
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