Shelling Up = Intellegent Defense?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by jamesgalb, Dec 16, 2012.

  1. jamesgalb

    jamesgalb Green Belt

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    I dont want to start this thread with long paragraphs about my opinion, so I will keep it simple and try to stick to the question.

    Should shelling up be considered intellegent defense? By definition, it is exactly that.

    I ask this because I have seen countless fighters shell up, weather the 'storm', and then come back strong. Then in other fights, I see a fighter shell up and the ref ends up stopping the fight quickly, when they took the last 4-5 shots on the forearms and were going in the direction of recovering. This is particularly frustrating near the end of the round, when it seems the defending fighter could have certainly escaped and gone on to create a much more interesting fight (Diaz vs Daley and Carano vs Santos come to mind).

    I personally feel like a ref should only stop a fight from strikes if a) the fighter is out and unable to defend themselves (whether stuck on their feet against the cage or on the ground), or b) when the fighter has been hit enough to cause them to want to TAP (physically or sometimes even verbally) instead of shelling up and trying to ride it out...

    I am tired of watching fighters volume striking the forearms of a dazed fighter trying to look for the quick stoppage. Either you hit them again and get a real stoppage, or you dont, but you shouldnt be rewarded to punching the forearms of a dazed fighter who is enroute to recovering.

    It is not as though a turtled fighter can not be hit, because they can. Elbow strikes to break the guard, body shots, knees to the body, mixing up punches on different sides, etc... Why should a fighter be rewarded for lazily and ineffectively hitting the defense of the opponent instead of finishing the fight with meaningful strikes? I think that's wrong.

    Thoughts?

    (Update: I like how many seem to agree that many stoppages on lightly dazed 'turtled' fighters come too soon. However; I do agree that if a fighter shells up for a lengthy period of time that the fight should be stopped. Also is a fighter is shelled p but taking significant damage, the fight should be stopped. The real debate here is when a fighter is shelled up and the winning fighter tries to unleash volume punches on their forearms or defense, and they don't get through)

    (UPdate 2 Baroa vs Faber: Unfortunately, Herb Dean felt 'pressured' last night. When 3/4ths of the public thinks 'unanswered strikes' demand a stoppage, and there is no real definition of 'intelligent defense', eventually you feel almost obligated to stop a fight even if the fighter being hit isn't really taking any damage...)

    (Update 3: Quote 1: "Why should someone be allowed to just chill and recover?" Quote 2: "If your opponent can just chill and recover, why on earth should the fight be stopped? If all you're doing is tiring yourself out, you're doing the wrong thing." - And that is exactly why the fight shouldn't be stopped)

    (Update 4: Im tired of hearing "covering up is an exploit of the rules and it makes it so you can only be hit in the back of the head". WRONG.
    -Body punches or elbows
    -Precision punching around the guard instead of uneffectively punching into it for volume
    -Reposition for new angle
    -Elbows THROUGH the guard
    -Knees or kicks to the body
    -Grappling your opponent out of the turtle
    -Submissions
    ALL ways to FINISH the TKO instead of just punching the opponents guard and hoping for a volume striking award.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2014
  2. The Soothsayer

    The Soothsayer Purple Belt

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    Seems like lately shelling up is getting guys KO'd a lot on the cage.

    I won't comment on how intelligent it is because I've never been in a cage fight. It's probably just conditional. Shogun took some haymakers from Dan shelled up on the cage, and he came back strong. But guys on TUF or whatever often drop like a rock. It just all depends.
     
  3. Kneeuinthenutz

    Kneeuinthenutz Steel Belt

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    Just ask Josh Rosenthal.

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    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
  4. phatron

    phatron Black Belt

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    if you're standing, yes.

    if you're on the ground....while you're still defending yourself....the fight is going to get stopped.

    People give Kalib Starnes a load of crap, but running away is a million times more intelligent than lying in the fetal position eating 20 haymakers.
     
  5. buda2

    buda2 Purple Belt

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    It's called turtling up. Just saying.

    Turtling up only works because you can't strike your opponent's back. Which is fine since it protects the fighter from rabid punches which are pretty dangerous.

    Nonetheless it's not really an effective form of defense. If a guy can't get out of that position regardless of whether or not he's seems to be taking damage or not I think they should stop the fight. Because it's also in the rules that a fight should be stopped if the fighter can no longer defend himself.
     
  6. jamesgalb

    jamesgalb Green Belt

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    Thats what I am saying. Turtling up IS defending yourself. If you take a big shot and get dropped, I do not think the fight should be stopped because the other guy jumped on top of you and hit your forearms 4-5 times...

    If you are dazed, you are not going to open up your defense and look to strike back while you are recovering, as it means you would open yourself to taking more damage in the seconds you need to recover. THAT would be UN-INTELLEGENT defense..

    If someone turtles up, its up to the other fighter to find a way in and knock you out from that position. If you can weather the storm from this position you should be allowed to continue... The defending fighter should not be required to drop his guard and expose himself to further damage while attempting to recover, in order to have the fight continue. The other fighter needs to knock him out still, not just hit his forearms.

    (all this said, some fighters that shell up are done, but as I said earlier they should be required to tap if they dont want to take more punishment just like with submissions. If they choose to turtle and continue, that is their choice)
     
  7. TFanatic

    TFanatic Silver Belt

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    Turtling should be able to buy you a couple seconds, maybe like 4-5. But if you don't start working or moving, then the fight should be stopped.
     
  8. Elbower

    Elbower Orange Belt

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    If done while standing,it's a good defense tactic especially if the fighter has stocky arms that enable him to take the brunt of the blows on the forearms, a good example that comes to mind is Quentin Jackson who shells up and counters with the left hook and was able to drop among others Wanderlei and Chuck.
    Shelling up on the ground is less viable however it enabled many fighters to weather the early onslaught and fight back.
     
  9. jamesgalb

    jamesgalb Green Belt

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    Thats exactly what I am saying. Shelling up is the exact thing that will allow a dazed guy that has been dropped to recover, but people expect them to open up when they are recovering and take more shots? pfft...
     
  10. van1ty

    van1ty Banned Banned

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    depends. someone turtled on their side is not an intelligent defense in almost all cases.
     
  11. The Taxman

    The Taxman Askren P4P #1

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    If none of the punches land than absolutely.

    Except if you're on bottom
     
  12. tombombadil

    tombombadil Guest

    i don't mind too much if itgets stopped. Not becasue punches are landing, but because, if the fight were for real, knees and stomps would end a guy who is just turtling.
     
  13. Aberinkula

    Aberinkula Purple Belt

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    It's intelligent defense, but it's temporary in nature.

    There are too many lame stoppages where someone gets dropped, they cover up and get hit in the gloves a bit and it gets stopped.
     
  14. the best evah

    the best evah Orange Belt

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    ya defintely this if your just lying there and turtiling up for like 15 seconds the ref should stop the fight but if your turtiling up for a few seconds to see if the guy will tire out and then maybe you can get back up.
     
  15. 7th

    7th Silver Belt

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    yeah I hate when they stop a fight from this and the commentators say 'well, he wasn't intelligently defending himself' or the ref yells 'fight back' covering up is defending yourself if the shots aren't getting through and you are also letting your opponent punch himself out.
     
  16. Joe_Armstrong

    Joe_Armstrong Starfleet Belt

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    Bob Sapp is very intelligent.
     
  17. pegson

    pegson Yellow Belt

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    sometimes u have to shell up and waiting for the guy to throw a punch and over commit bringing his body close so u can grab onto him. I hate these crappy quick flurries that stop fights.
     
  18. Cage917r

    Cage917r Brown Belt

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    Maybe, but it goes along with the you must fight back concept. No ref is going to stand there for more than 30 seconds if all you do is lay there and shell up, you at least have to show effort in relation to getting the fighter away from you.
     
  19. Shelling up on the ground is usually a way for the fighter to "give up"
     
  20. SnowBlynd

    SnowBlynd Red Belt

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    Refusal to engage an opponent is not really in the same boat as shelling up. That's breaking a different rule
     

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