Sell me marriage...

[minute bull]

It was actually you who made the claim that mgtow is irresponsible. If I'm responsible for myself then I'm responsible. Period.

The analogy is perfect, hence the reason you didn't try to dismantle it but only scoff.

Unions work toward a common progress.

What you think you're talking about is LIVING YOUR LIFE -- but it's not on your terms, fox.

Also, prenups are often thrown out. You would know that if you had researched the topic even a little.

All this research should result in a rock solid prenup, bud. Use knowledge to gain advantage.

That's a fair point of view that you are presenting. Hence in that case I am the fox. Now just like the fox, I cant reach the grapes.

Now would this thread be considered an act of open mindedness towards wanting to change my point of view? Hence I want to know what the benefits are in getting married and so in way, I want to know what the grapes taste like and people who have tasted the grapes are letting me know about their personal vines.

In this analogy, the vines are every persons relationship/marriage. While the soil in which the vine grew in the present time is the cultural expectation of what men and women expect from each other.

Which is worse: using an example that has no salience or getting lost in a metaphor?

Go sell that nonsense somewhere else. I suspect you probably confuse concepts like "critical" and "scrutiny" and "peer review" with this thread, thus it must be open-minded -- but your rebuttals are canned responses and forays into nonsense. Discussion is not in the mere existence of a thread but in it's performance. Just because you asked a question doesn't mean you're looking for answers. You're looking to be contrary, which is in line with being contrary to the concept of marriage.

You don't want to be married because you fear being raped by divorce. That fear is what you need to address, not the concept of marriage.

 

[Jake the Muss]

Actually, you don't need to be married to have a meaningful relationship. You also have no basis to claim that mgtow discourages anyone from self improvement. If anything, it's encouraged. The natural reaction from the pro-marriage crowd is to claim that a person is being selfish and immature for focusing on themselves and their own goals.

Lol, which is it?

And you're right about those marriage stats. Scary stuff bro.

MGTOW's solely focus on failure rates, but the thing they obsess over only reveals the insecurity that they don't think they are man enough to make a marriage work. They are afraid of failure.

Most businesses are small businesses, and most businesses fail. There are many reasons for failure, but if you want to be a powerful company and have subsidiaries, you are going to want to have a system in place to protect the acquired wealth and to pass it on to the next generation. That entails doing business through a legal entity.

You are not going to get access to wealth building privileges and sustain it by being a sole proprietorship.

MGTOW = Sole proprietorship.
Marriage = Union = Corporation.

 

[Pugilistic]

I view this response as childish, as you seem to, but I am willing to take it a step further. This is just the expression of victimhood as part of the snowflake culture that surrounds us, and it's rather intolerable. These men and their ideology are largely a derivative of the question, "Why don't girls like me?" Since they can't face the idea that they themselves are the problem, they have to suggest that all women are the problem. It's no different than a fat girl who asks herself why she can't get a boyfriend, a malicious bitch who can't keep a man, or any other person who has a truly off-putting character trait: The problem isn't everyone else, it's just you. You can either accept that, change something about yourself, and improve, or you can't. If you do, there are lots of possibilities that open to you. You will have the opportunity to date around, attract women that you want to attract, and, if you choose, marry one to establish a life together. If not, then all of those doors are shut to you because you are your own limiting factor. You can choose from other things, same as the man who doesn't have this character flaw (virtually no one has to choose between getting married and making money/having a career that you want, having a hobby, or whatever else, as that's just a false dichotomy). By merely being objectively better, you open more possibilities to yourself. But these guys really don't want to see this about themselves, so they turn a blind eye and repress it, rationalizing their behavior by establishing an echo chamber for themselves. Oh well, you can't make people learn.

Wow, great post.
Even as a guy who doesn't want to get married, I can see that a lot of these guys, if not most, are coming from a hatred of women. A lot of the attitudes I see from these guys and from sherdog in general is that one of shunning responsibility. That's what it all comes down to. This "Women are the problem!" mindset is the exactly same one men complain about when it comes to feminists, just on the other side of the coin. Men afraid of taking ownership of their own flaws and projecting their insecurities onto others. I think it's ironic that many traits men fault women for, these men are guilty of the same shit. Like you said, unbeknownst to them, these MTGOW/meminist movements are just another product of the exact same "I'm a victim too" culture that produced new-wave feminism.

 

[BlacknBlue]

Getting married ain't bad. I think some people here forget something real simple: You can actually marry anyone you want. If you don't want to marry some gold-digging whore that is going to destroy you emotionally and financially...don't marry one. Marry a nice girl, that loves to fuck, has a good job, and that you can get along with. I am perfectly happy.

If you feel the only women that will marry you are gold-digging whores...than yeah, maybe marriage might suck.

 

[minute bull]

It's not hatred of women.

It's wrestling with the conceptualization of self-worth.

 

[Robocok]

MGTOW's solely focus on failure rates, but the thing they obsess over only reveals the insecurity that they don't think they are man enough to make a marriage work. They are afraid of failure.

All of the responsibility for a marriage surviving or failing is dependent on the guy being 'man enough'. Interesting, I thought it takes 2 to tango.

Sorry, but you're really not selling the benefits here. I can enjoy all of the benefits of a wife without a marriage certificate. The only difference between you and me is that if I break up with a girl, it won't ruin me.

All of your talk about honor, commitment, and selflessness are things you say to feel better about it, which is fine. I don't have a problem with you getting married. The absurd thing is to try to bash someone for not signing that silly contract.

 

[Robocok]

It's not hatred of women.

It's wrestling with the conceptualization of self-worth.

You're right that it's not a hatred of women. I love women.

Do you derive your self worth from a woman marrying you?

 

[Robocok]

Wow, great post.
Even as a guy who doesn't want to get married, I can see that a lot of these guys, if not most, are coming from a hatred of women. A lot of the attitudes I see from these guys and from sherdog in general is that one of shunning responsibility. That's what it all comes down to. This "Women are the problem!" mindset is the exactly same one men complain about when it comes to feminists, just on the other side of the coin. Men afraid of taking ownership of their own flaws and projecting their insecurities onto others. I think it's ironic that many traits men fault women for, these men are guilty of the same shit. Like you said, unbeknownst to them, these MTGOW/meminist movements are just another product of the exact same "I'm a victim too" culture that produced new-wave feminism.

No, it's not a hatred of women. I love women. Not sure where you get all of this. I imagine that things must be pretty different in asia. It's probably difficult for someone who has never experienced the family court system to understand the objection towards marriage and having kids in the US.

 

[Ogata]

Unions work toward a common progress.

What you think you're talking about is LIVING YOUR LIFE -- but it's not on your terms, fox.



All this research should result in a rock solid prenup, bud. Use knowledge to gain advantage.



Which is worse: using an example that has no salience or getting lost in a metaphor?

Go sell that nonsense somewhere else. I suspect you probably confuse concepts like "critical" and "scrutiny" and "peer review" with this thread, thus it must be open-minded -- but your rebuttals are canned responses and forays into nonsense. Discussion is not in the mere existence of a thread but in it's performance. Just because you asked a question doesn't mean you're looking for answers. You're looking to be contrary, which is in line with being contrary to the concept of marriage.

You don't want to be married because you fear being raped by divorce. That fear is what you need to address, not the concept of marriage.

What is nonsense about it?

I am asking a question and need collective opinion. Based on your analogy, you have established that the vine is the marriage and I equate the soil to the cultural expectation as well as how marriage laws work.

If a person who is pro marriage can sell me the benefits of marriage, I would probably shift my ideas from MGTOW to MRA.

After all, we are discussing different lifestyle and ideologies. Your perception is that MGTOW is a prison of the mind while I feel the same about marriage. For me, MGTOW led me to financial prosperity. Now I need to know why people are pro marriage in the era of rampant casual sex and tinder dating.

So far, you are being dismissive of my intentions and thus, the discussion is not about comparing advantage/disadvantage of each life style but rather the pro marriage supporters simply want to create false analogies such as fox and the grape. In reality, a fox cant access the internet and communicate with other foxes and hence, I was simply pointing the flaws of that analogy in a polite manner.

 

[Robocok]

Unions work toward a common progress.

What you think you're talking about is LIVING YOUR LIFE -- but it's not on your terms, fox.



All this research should result in a rock solid prenup, bud. Use knowledge to gain advantage.

Marriage is also about working towards a common goal, hence why the analogy fits.

Also, I already addressed the fact that prenups are often tossed out. Getting a better prenup is not a surefire thing. They don't always work.

At the end of the day, there's no reason why a couple can't have a nice, fulfilling relationship without getting married. There's also no reason to say a guy is wrong for dating a lot of different women and never aettling down. I think a lot of the attacks on this lifestyle come from a place of insecurity and jealous, unfortunately.

 

[sloppypie]

Now I just got back from meditation

 

[Jake the Muss]

All of the responsibility for a marriage surviving or failing is dependent on the guy being 'man enough'. Interesting, I thought it takes 2 to tango.

Sorry, but you're really not selling the benefits here. I can enjoy all of the benefits of a wife without a marriage certificate. The only difference between you and me is that if I break up with a girl, it won't ruin me.

All of your talk about honor, commitment, and selflessness are things you say to feel better about it, which is fine. I don't have a problem with you getting married. The absurd thing is to try to bash someone for not signing that silly contract.

If only you realized how true that "not man enough" statement was.

Do your own homework. I want to tell you more just to help you out, but I feel like I have already said enough and it still hasn't sunk in yet. Why waste anymore time?

Let us know how MGTOW worked out for you.

 

[Ogata]

Marriage is also about working towards a common goal, hence why the analogy fits.

Also, I already addressed the fact that prenups are often tossed out. Getting a better prenup is not a surefire thing. They don't always work.

At the end of the day, there's no reason why a couple can't have a nice, fulfilling relationship without getting married. There's also no reason to say a guy is wrong for dating a lot of different women and never aettling down. I think a lot of the attacks on this lifestyle come from a place of insecurity and jealous, unfortunately.

Well said and to add to that, what makes marriage successful is family support from both sides. My parents are middle eastern/Eastern European from the old school era. For starters, if as teens they tried to get flirty with other teens , they could have caught a vicious beating from families for acting indecent. Now this is fucked up and overkill but its the antagonist of modern era.


Another thing is, for them, marriage wasn't just about both of them being fond of each other but also meant that both families could bond and do business together since both were upper middle class. Thus the marriage was built not on flakey infatuation that fizzles out but rather.

Now a days, people can get wild and crazy. Party hard and hook up like its no big deal. In reality what this does is, when the party girl settles down, she will get married and in the beginning marriage is great, fun and she loves the husband until...the novelty wears off.

Once that happens, the wife will yearn for her nostalgic party days and chances are with passing of time, she becomes bitter and angry because somehow in her head, you manipulated her in to a loveless marriage. She cheats and in court, she would cry wolf that you were psychologically abusing her and thus, she gets most of your shit as a reward for her infidelity. Prenub gets thrown out because she can wolf cry manipulation.


This is something that is reoccurring time and time again. Its fucked up, I thought it was some shit that happened to guys like Tom Leykis and Dave Foley but its happening to people I know in life.

 

[CodeBreaker]

When you get old, let's say 60. No one's gonna be with you. You're all alone like a loser. Looking through the window, crying like a lil bitch.

When you're dying, no one is going to take care of you. You lie on your bed and wait for you last breathe.
When you die, no one will cry like no one doesn't give a fuck about you.

Marry, and raise good kids. Your family will always be there for you until the end.

 

[koolinkunming]

A freak in the sack that's willing to sex every day but not BJ every day

She prefers to fuck and that works for me. I mean bjs aren’t everyday, but not non-existent either. Does spend hours rubbing and massaging while we watch tv or whatever.

 

[cheachea]

 

[Robocok]

If only you realized how true that "not man enough" statement was.

Do your own homework. I want to tell you more just to help you out, but I feel like I have already said enough and it still hasn't sunk in yet. Why waste anymore time?

Let us know how MGTOW worked out for you.

Ok Mr. Manly, whatever you say. I will do my thing and you do yours.

 

[Robocok]

When you get old, let's say 60. No one's gonna be with you. You're all alone like a loser. Looking through the window, crying like a lil bitch.

When you're dying, no one is going to take care of you. You lie on your bed and wait for you last breathe.
When you die, no one will cry like no one doesn't give a fuck about you.

Marry, and raise good kids. Your family will always be there for you until the end.

You're going to die old and alone. No one will care. Classic marriage argument. How does a piece of paper make your relationships more meaningful than mine again?

Also, do you really think it's a good idea for everyone to have kids? There are some dumbasses out there that probably don't need to reproduce, no disrespect.

 

[Pugilistic]

No, it's not a hatred of women. I love women. Not sure where you get all of this. I imagine that things must be pretty different in asia. It's probably difficult for someone who has never experienced the family court system to understand the objection towards marriage and having kids in the US.

The classic "You're not from here so you don't understand" response. You keep missing the part where I actually don't want to get married either. But we're obviously coming from two different places.

Have you experienced it?

 

[Robocok]

The classic "You're not from here so you don't understand" response. You keep missing the part where I actually don't want to get married either. But we're obviously coming from two different places.

Have you experienced it?

I'm not putting you down, but not being from here could affect your grasp of the court system.

Yeah, I was married before. I actually initiated the split with her not realizing how it would go down. I got off okay. It was a long time ago. I visit my kid. I got really lucky and didn't have to pay the alimony she asked for.

It's a long story but I don't hate anyone. Definitely not putting myself in that position again though.