orlando snatchez: your new champ

[Dirty Holt]

It shows that good wrestling style pressure can overcome almost all dynamic offense at the upper weights. Why BJJ people are so fiercely anti wrestling blows my mind when a guy can come in and just wrestlefuck his opponents to victory.

That being said, I would take great satisfaction in ADCC not inviting Sanchez back despite being the champ. Unless the Sheik has some kind of fetish, I cant imagine him being very entertained by Orlando's competition antics.

 

[brendan raedy]

It shows that good wrestling style pressure can overcome almost all dynamic offense at the upper weights. Why BJJ people are so fiercely anti wrestling blows my mind when a guy can come in and just wrestlefuck his opponents to victory.

That being said, I would take great satisfaction in ADCC not inviting Sanchez back despite being the champ. Unless the Sheik has some kind of fetish, I cant imagine him being very entertained by Orlando's competition antics.

Agreed. You see similar things happening in college wrestling, especially from 174 pounds and up. Hand fight hard, take no shots, build up riding time while making no real attempt to turn, and then stall/dive through legs/force potentially dangerous your way to victory, or get a go behind takedown as your opponent is forced to play catch up, thus solidifying your win.

A lot of wrestling fans are bored or outright hostile to that style for the same reasons many BJJ players don't like the tactics in question on this thread. People in both sports want to see dynamic athletes trying to score points and get pins/subs.

 

[Uchi Mata]

It shows that good wrestling style pressure can overcome almost all dynamic offense at the upper weights. Why BJJ people are so fiercely anti wrestling blows my mind when a guy can come in and just wrestlefuck his opponents to victory.

That being said, I would take great satisfaction in ADCC not inviting Sanchez back despite being the champ. Unless the Sheik has some kind of fetish, I cant imagine him being very entertained by Orlando's competition antics.

I'll continue to insist that this isn't really true outside of a few Rorion lineage nut huggers. Most BJJ guys who compete at all recognize the importance of wrestling as a skill set and the toughness of wrestlers as competitors. It is surprising that guys who compete in venues like ADCC, especially at the higher weights, haven't either gotten better at wrestling or developed specific games around shutting a pure wrestling style game down in sub grappling.

 

[brendan raedy]

I'll continue to insist that this isn't really true outside of a few Rorion lineage nut huggers. Most BJJ guys who compete at all recognize the importance of wrestling as a skill set and the toughness of wrestlers as competitors. It is surprising that guys who compete in venues like ADCC, especially at the higher weights, haven't either gotten better at wrestling or developed specific games around shutting a pure wrestling style game down in sub grappling.

That probably has something to do with ADCC only being once every 2 years, with the vast majority of other events in the interim having no penalty for guard pulling.

 

[black belch]

since when is orlando sanchez a wrestler?

 

[Uchi Mata]

That probably has something to do with ADCC only being once every 2 years, with the vast majority of other events in the interim having no penalty for guard pulling.

Most likely. Though contrasting the excitement of ADCC to something like EBI should make one question the wisdom of disallowing guard pulls.

 

[the heed]

Most likely. Though contrasting the excitement of ADCC to something like EBI should make one question the wisdom of disallowing guard pulls.

EBI also works because so far its has been nothing but lighter guys. I don't think we will be talking about the same event with heavy weights.. well exception of the few..

 

[BJJ_Rage]

It shows that good wrestling style pressure can overcome almost all dynamic offense at the upper weights. Why BJJ people are so fiercely anti wrestling blows my mind when a guy can come in and just wrestlefuck his opponents to victory.

That being said, I would take great satisfaction in ADCC not inviting Sanchez back despite being the champ. Unless the Sheik has some kind of fetish, I cant imagine him being very entertained by Orlando's competition antics.

No one should complain about people wrestling fuck people if rules are fair enough. But when you are giving advantage to one type of guy by basically saying you can do what you know, that the other guy is force to engage in your world other ways will lose. Thats not fair, pretty simple.

Marcelo has zero problems choking out Mike van Arsdale, and many other wrestlers, thing is those guys were willing to engage. If you are not willing to engage, you are not willing to grapple. If the rules give you points for not grappling, then I think thats an unfair advantage.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

EBI also works because so far its has been nothing but lighter guys. I don't think we will be talking about the same event with heavy weights.. well exception of the few..

they are going to do heavier weights, I agree hevier guys wont engage in leg lock inveterd dinamic battles that EBI is giving the fans now, that doesnt mean it wont be exiting. We sure as fuck aint going to be watching bitch slapping for 20 minutes.

 

[PayPerView]

since when is orlando sanchez a wrestler?

He isn't one.

It's his size and athleticism and strength that allows him to out wrestle wrestlers and throw judo guys.

 

[German Supplex]

No one should complain about people wrestling fuck people if rules are fair enough. But when you are giving advantage to one type of guy by basically saying you can do what you know, that the other guy is force to engage in your world other ways will lose. Thats not fair, pretty simple.

Its not unfair, it just means if a guy has no stand up he is unprepared and not well rounded. Grappling is grappling. If someone chooses to neglect one aspect of it, thats on them.

Marcelo has zero problems choking out Mike van Arsdale, and many other wrestlers, thing is those guys were willing to engage. If you are not willing to engage, you are not willing to grapple. If the rules give you points for not grappling, then I think thats an unfair advantage.

I didnt watch it, but it doesnt sound like Orlando got points for "not grappling", but rather that his opponents were in the negative and he just prevented them from recovering. In that case, the person who couldnt do anything is just as bad if the person schaubing their game down prevents them from doing anything to advance or submit.

If thats not what happened, then disregard.

 

[nodferatu]

Well that's just stupid. He's a big dude, but I'm sure he carries exactly the amount of weight he thinks he fights and trains best at. He's definitely not a slob, slobs don't go that many matches at ADCC without gassing. It's not like he used to be thin and got big, he's just a huge dude.

Actually he was thin and then got into Body Building comps I believe. Or strong mans. One of the two.

 

[Zankou]

Its not unfair, it just means if a guy has no stand up he is unprepared and not well rounded. Grappling is grappling. If someone chooses to neglect one aspect of it, thats on them.



I didnt watch it, but it doesnt sound like Orlando got points for "not grappling", but rather that his opponents were in the negative and he just prevented them from recovering. In that case, the person who couldnt do anything is just as bad if the person schaubing their game down prevents them from doing anything to advance or submit.

If thats not what happened, then disregard.

Sanchez didn't win by points, sadly. He won by three ref's decisions in a row (tho I believe he submitted his outmatched first opponent). So this is part of the problem ... it becomes a game of who can look busier without actually managing to score. Is it a workable path to victory, yes, but few admire working the rules in this fashion.

 

[nefti]

monson 2.o

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Its not unfair, it just means if a guy has no stand up he is unprepared and not well rounded. Grappling is grappling. If someone chooses to neglect one aspect of it, thats on them.



I didnt watch it, but it doesnt sound like Orlando got points for "not grappling", but rather that his opponents were in the negative and he just prevented them from recovering. In that case, the person who couldnt do anything is just as bad if the person schaubing their game down prevents them from doing anything to advance or submit.

If thats not what happened, then disregard.

well, then how about the "wrestler learns to ground fight in a sub wrestling tournament, under your logic, the wrstler is not well rounded either thats way hes afraid to grapple on the ground.

 

[Dirty Holt]

No one should complain about people wrestling fuck people if rules are fair enough. But when you are giving advantage to one type of guy by basically saying you can do what you know, that the other guy is force to engage in your world other ways will lose. Thats not fair, pretty simple.

I believe Sanchez would agree with you. He only used one skillset (wrestling) to score no points and get to top, where the wrestling style was FORCED to be on the ground with his competition with no way to really score any more points and he still won every match.

This does not show a flaw in the rules; it shows a flaw in heavyweight BJJ athlete's training structure and skill set. You have a guy coming in winning +99 with no attempts at BJJ, using takedowns and top pressure to beat the best large athletes BJJ has to offer. ADCC shouldnt change the rules; big athletes should change their mentality when it comes to training. Davi and Simoes did and it worked for them.

 

[Zankou]

I believe Sanchez would agree with you. He only used one skillset (wrestling) to score no points and get to top, where the wrestling style was FORCED to be on the ground with his competition with no way to really score any more points and he still won every match.

This does not show a flaw in the rules; it shows a flaw in heavyweight BJJ athlete's training structure and skill set. You have a guy coming in winning +99 with no attempts at BJJ, using takedowns and top pressure to beat the best large athletes BJJ has to offer. ADCC shouldnt change the rules; big athletes should change their mentality when it comes to training. Davi and Simoes did and it worked for them.

Counterpoint: In lower weight divisions, it is harder to just stall and flop. You definitely see lighter guys who still work stalling top game, like Tanquinho, whose game I also loathe, but rarely are they so one-dimensional.

In HW, it's so comparatively advantageous to just lay on a guy that it makes it much more worthwhile to be a really heavy guy who does little except refuse to concede a TD or engage the guard and then hope for ref's decisions to go his way. Remember that Sanchez didn't exactly win with TDs; he didn't score a single TD point in his last three matches. He won by looking more active and stronger on his feet, which is a horrible way for fights to be decided. If anything, one might more accurately say he won with TD defense. Which is equivalent to winning judo matches by being a grip penalty specialist ... those guys actually exist btw.

Part of the problem is that BJJ doesn't call stalling enough while standing OR on the ground ... the lack of stalling calls continues to be my number one biggest gripe with BJJ rules. You end up with fights that are decided by faux activity, rather than either fighter ever being genuinely scared they might get hit with a penalty. This favors guys who develop games that look like they have the upper hand, and then they just lay n pray for a decision. It's as annoying in grappling as in MMA.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I believe Sanchez would agree with you. He only used one skillset (wrestling) to score no points and get to top, where the wrestling style was FORCED to be on the ground with his competition with no way to really score any more points and he still won every match.

This does not show a flaw in the rules; it shows a flaw in heavyweight BJJ athlete's training structure and skill set. You have a guy coming in winning +99 with no attempts at BJJ, using takedowns and top pressure to beat the best large athletes BJJ has to offer. ADCC shouldnt change the rules; big athletes should change their mentality when it comes to training. Davi and Simoes did and it worked for them.

only problem with your logic is that he got a point by giving his opponent a negative point. your logic is flawed.

anyways, this weight class is to be expected to be ruled by the better wrestler, because even if there were no points added to guard pullers, at that weight class is very hard to find any guy with a good enough guard to beat a guy like orlando. With buchecha and werdum out, vinny was the only hope, but orlando is just too fucking big and if top position is rewarded in the ref decisions, hell likely win, Its ugly but it is what it is, once vinny was out, it was clear he was going to win.

 

[German Supplex]

He isn't one.

It's his size and athleticism and strength that allows him to out wrestle wrestlers and throw judo guys.

Im not entirely sure thats accurate. Rustam Chsiev is at least 90-100 lbs lighter than Sanchez and didn't he manhandle Orlando the last ADCC? Also, which judo guys has Orlando thrown?

 

[German Supplex]

anyways, this weight class is to be expected to be ruled by the better wrestler, because even if there were no points added to guard pullers, at that weight class is very hard to find any guy with a good enough guard to beat a guy like orlando. With buchecha and werdum out, vinny was the only hope, but orlando is just too fucking big and if top position is rewarded in the ref decisions, hell likely win, Its ugly but it is what it is, once vinny was out, it was clear he was going to win.

Maybe if the guys he went against refused to concede being on bottom, they might have won. And maybe if they knew a little wrestling or judo they wouldve been on top gaining favor with the ref.