orlando snatchez: your new champ

[Dirty Holt]

I'm happy to concede the analogy, but what of my original question. Would a legitimately good wrestler score points in this ruleset against a BJJ guy training just enough defensive wrestling to avoid a clean takedown straight to pin?

Yes, he would score 2 points fairly easily. A pure wrestler would also get subbed on the ground pretty quickly.

There was a guy who wrestled in the same region as I did in HS named Otto Olson. He was a very good college wrestler and with about 18 months of BJJ training, he made the ADCC finals only losing to MG. I would say Otto was an exception.

 

[brendan raedy]

Rinaldi from Cornell also made the ADCC finals after about 18 months of BJJ training.

 

[yetanother]

Rinaldi from Cornell also made the ADCC finals after about 18 months of BJJ training.

Rinaldi had really good bjj in addition to wrestling.
He swept Xande from his closed guard.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Yes, he would score 2 points fairly easily. A pure wrestler would also get subbed on the ground pretty quickly.

There was a guy who wrestled in the same region as I did in HS named Otto Olson. He was a very good college wrestler and with about 18 months of BJJ training, he made the ADCC finals only losing to MG. I would say Otto was an exception.

so on a technical level, what are these bjj guys not doing with their takedowns thats resulting in these endless scoreless draws (aside from stalling for a refs decision)? I mean, its not like theyre all completely inept on the feet, and some guys like callasans & chsiev seem to be pretty decent

 

[Uchi Mata]

so on a technical level, what are these bjj guys not doing with their takedowns thats resulting in these endless scoreless draws (aside from stalling for a refs decision)? I mean, its not like theyre all completely inept on the feet, and some guys like callasans & chsiev seem to be pretty decent

They're risk averse, and the refs don't call stalling. In a format like ADCC shooting, getting sprawled on, and having someone like Rafa Mendes in a front headlock position or on your back is not something you recover from.

They don't want to shoot.

 

[tommy the kid]

They're risk averse, and the refs don't call stalling. In a format like ADCC shooting, getting sprawled on, and having someone like Rafa Mendes in a front headlock position or on your back is not something you recover from.

They don't want to shoot.

so whyd oes dirty holt feel they can score 2 points easily? is there something im missing here?

 

[brendan raedy]

Rinaldi had really good bjj in addition to wrestling.
He swept Xande from his closed guard.

Oh yeah, I didn't mean to imply in any way the guy wasn't very, very good at BJJ. I actually had the chance to train with him at Silver Fox (Karl Pravec) Academy and not only was he great to train with, but he seemed like he had a good head on his shoulders. Not that people generally graduate from Cornell without that.

 

[Leify]

so whyd oes dirty holt feel they can score 2 points easily? is there something im missing here?

They aren't mutually exclusive scenarios. You can finish the td off the sprawl and a guy like Rafa could hit a guillotine as he gets put on his back.

 

[tommy the kid]

They aren't mutually exclusive scenarios. You can finish the td off the sprawl and a guy like Rafa could hit a guillotine as he gets put on his back.

ah well sure, i guess i was thinking those 2 pts were kinda negated by being finished. i would also imagine the elite wrestler in this scenario would be thinking as strategically as the bjj-er. and so also hesitant to shoot.

the most success seemed to be getting behind your opponent while standing

 

[brendan raedy]

so on a technical level, what are these bjj guys not doing with their takedowns thats resulting in these endless scoreless draws (aside from stalling for a refs decision)? I mean, its not like theyre all completely inept on the feet, and some guys like callasans & chsiev seem to be pretty decent

It's really hard to wrestle someone that doesn't want to wrestle, especially when the ref can't or won't call stalling. Top that off with general exhaustion from long matches, slipperiness of no singlet or shoes, and things get really difficult.

The crucifix makes high crotches less than ideal to shoot, and the slickness mentioned above makes low singles and even mid level shots very hard. It's tough to tie up when guys are slick and will push you away or slide out. A double comes with the risk of a guillotine, so things get really tricky.

On top of all that, a takedown to turtle is 2 points in wrestling. In ADCC, it's worth nothing.

Some judoka have adapted techniques to no-gi very well, but by and large even more judo goes out the window when you take the gi off than BJJ.

Chsiev has a great blast double that generally lands in side, but not many athletes can maintain that kind of explosion for multiple 10 or 20 minute matches. A wrestling match is 6 (college 7) with breaks between periods. Also, tournaments are done by rounds, rather than weights all at once, so you have more time to recover that explosive energy.

 

[Zankou]

Here is a cool vid of Calasans and Durinho training their wrestling for ADCC 2015 ... you can see the style of attack that they work on, primarily blast doubles.

 

[Dirty Holt]

so whyd oes dirty holt feel they can score 2 points easily? is there something im missing here?

I think a college level wrestler could score 2points easily against most guys in ADCC outside of the heavyweights. I feel that way because These guys spend 15 years of their life training super hard with a thousand matches to be able to do this.

Now, you want to talk about why someone like Cobrinha takes 45 minutes to take down Mendes? Because like Uchimata said, the refs dont call stalling at all, they spend maybe 30 practices a year doing takedowns, and for non full time wrestlers, decent defense is easier to learn than decent offense, making offensive risk a tough trigger to pull.

 

[Gabicho]

Orlando Sanchez would not be able to win against a very good wrestler/judoka of his own size/weight using the same strategy.

They'd just defend, get a takedown, smash, bore everyone to death, and beat Orlando. Orlando would get Orlando'd.

But styles make fights. Orlando is just too hard to take down by guys with regular wrestling/judo... and guys like Vinny, Xande, Cyborg, etc, who actually have great guards, would be a nightmare for this wrestler, because they would be willing to concede 2 points just to get him inside their guards and work from there.

And that is why, we need to raise a fund to bring back Mark Kerr or Arona. They would Orlandown Orlando.

 

[nefti]

I think a college level wrestler could score 2points easily against most guys in ADCC outside of the heavyweights. I feel that way because These guys spend 15 years of their life training super hard with a thousand matches to be able to do this.

Now, you want to talk about why someone like Cobrinha takes 45 minutes to take down Mendes? Because like Uchimata said, the refs dont call stalling at all, they spend maybe 30 practices a year doing takedowns, and for non full time wrestlers, decent defense is easier to learn than decent offense, making offensive risk a tough trigger to pull.

what do you think about AJ's wrestling in the nogi/adcc ruleset?

 

[dokomoy]

what do you think about AJ's wrestling in the nogi/adcc ruleset?

AJ's lack of success standing in nogi surprises me so much. I can see why he might have trouble adapting it to the gi, but it's weird how often a D1 wrestler gets outwrestled nogi. Off the top of my head: at ADCC 2013 he lost against Leo Viera in a match that took place almost entirely on the feet, at this years ADCC Otavio Sousa took his back from standing and at last years Nogi Pans he tried to shoot on Gary Tonnon and got his back taken for his efforts.

 

[Quipling]

Sounds like Metamoris has a good opportunity to showcase Schuab vs Orlando in their first no time limit match.

Good way to neutralize the audience.

 

[anaconda]

Just ask Rustam Chsiev. Like I asked before, didnt Rustam manhandle Orlando in the absolute in the last ADCC? Rustam is at least 90 lbs lighter, if not more.

Orlando is a lot better than he was 2 years ago.

Honestly I really don't like watching him fight, but he was the aggressor in most of his matches.

 

[nefti]

AJ's lack of success standing in nogi surprises me so much. I can see why he might have trouble adapting it to the gi, but it's weird how often a D1 wrestler gets outwrestled nogi. Off the top of my head: at ADCC 2013 he lost against Leo Viera in a match that took place almost entirely on the feet, at this years ADCC Otavio Sousa took his back from standing and at last years Nogi Pans he tried to shoot on Gary Tonnon and got his back taken for his efforts.

He did wrestle for Ohio State, I mean he was a walk on but he was on the ohio state wrestling team.

 

[Dirty Holt]

what do you think about AJ's wrestling in the nogi/adcc ruleset?

He was a DI wrestler, but that can mean anything. Looking at his results, he was middle of the road and never went to the national tournament, but he did have slightly more wins than losses and did win a tournament. I have never seen him in a wrestling match so its hard to say how good he is.

Watching him wrestle in ADCC/BJJ/nogi, Im not sure why his style doesnt correlate as well as people project onto him. I have seen him get the takedown in almost every match he is in at his weight class, but he really struggles with some guys.

Here is the thing about AJ: He might not always get the takedown, but he rarely ever gets taken down, and he rarely, if ever, gets subbed off of takedowns. You would think he would be an absolute hammer in most matches on the feet but some guys' style is suited better for wrestling than submission wrestling.

 

[nefti]

He was a DI wrestler, but that can mean anything. Looking at his results, he was middle of the road and never went to the national tournament, but he did have slightly more wins than losses and did win a tournament. I have never seen him in a wrestling match so its hard to say how good he is.

Isn't Ohio State one of the best programs in the nation? I would think making it on the team (even as a walk on) would mean you are a beast.