orlando snatchez: your new champ

Maybe if the guys he went against refused to concede being on bottom, they might have won. And maybe if they knew a little wrestling or judo they wouldve been on top gaining favor with the ref.

kind of like what jared dopp did? that decision was based on who ever bitch slap better, I dont know how could they have found a winner n that match, I think it was probably through coin flip of some shit like that.

but I agree, get a good wrestler or judo guy in there, someone with better wrestling skills (of similar size) and was probably going to beat orlando, not vinny though, unless he has top subdefense.
 
I'd have loved to have seen Barnett in there. Really confused as to why he got no invite.

There were a lot of guys actually that I was looking forward to watching in the adcc that ended up not going for one reason or another.

Disappointing.
 
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Counterpoint: In lower weight divisions, it is harder to just stall and flop. You definitely see lighter guys who still work stalling top game, like Tanquinho, whose game I also loathe, but rarely are they so one-dimensional.

In HW, it's so comparatively advantageous to just lay on a guy that it makes it much more worthwhile to be a really heavy guy who does little except refuse to concede a TD or engage the guard and then hope for ref's decisions to go his way. Remember that Sanchez didn't exactly win with TDs; he didn't score a single TD point in his last three matches. He won by looking more active and stronger on his feet, which is a horrible way for fights to be decided. If anything, one might more accurately say he won with TD defense. Which is equivalent to winning judo matches by being a grip penalty specialist ... those guys actually exist btw.

Part of the problem is that BJJ doesn't call stalling enough while standing OR on the ground ... the lack of stalling calls continues to be my number one biggest gripe with BJJ rules. You end up with fights that are decided by faux activity, rather than either fighter ever being genuinely scared they might get hit with a penalty. This favors guys who develop games that look like they have the upper hand, and then they just lay n pray for a decision. It's as annoying in grappling as in MMA.

I agree with this 100% which is why in both my posts, I cited that larger athletes in BJJ with wrestling heavy skillsets are frowned upon but exploit poor training tactics of their competitors who do not focus on wrestling style pressure games.

IMO, the reason why this doesnt work with small guys is simply because they arent fat enough to have the kind of mass and surface area to pull this off. Nothing to do with athleticism, just pure blanket surface area with mass.
 
I'd have loved to have seen Barnett in there. Really confused as to why he got no invite.

There were a lot of guys actually that I was looking forward to watching in the adcc that ended up not going for one reason or another.

Disappointing.

I dont think even josh wouldve stand a chance vs Orlando in this rules set, you have to be a really really good wrestler, I dont think Josh has the wrestling skills to pull it out, it wouldve turn out to be a slapping fest.
 
I agree with this 100% which is why in both my posts, I cited that larger athletes in BJJ with wrestling heavy skillsets are frowned upon but exploit poor training tactics of their competitors who do not focus on wrestling style pressure games.

IMO, the reason why this doesnt work with small guys is simply because they arent fat enough to have the kind of mass and surface area to pull this off. Nothing to do with athleticism, just pure blanket surface area with mass.

Again though, I think a lot of the problem is reffing. Even HW wrestling matches don't typically feature tons of dynamic wrestling with dudes chaining TDs and being super aggressive. Half the time it's two huge dudes hand fighting with no one wanting to take a shot, but in wrestling the refs force them to with passivity calls. That doesn't happen in ADCC so you end up with guys being able to stall on the feet to a decision. I'd have no problem with double DQs BTW if no one was willing to actually try for a TD.
 
Again though, I think a lot of the problem is reffing. Even HW wrestling matches don't typically feature tons of dynamic wrestling with dudes chaining TDs and being super aggressive. Half the time it's two huge dudes hand fighting with no one wanting to take a shot, but in wrestling the refs force them to with passivity calls. That doesn't happen in ADCC so you end up with guys being able to stall on the feet to a decision. I'd have no problem with double DQs BTW if no one was willing to actually try for a TD.

Stalling takes different forms in different weights. Small fast guys invert, spin, use flexibility to retain and regain guard while making no serious attempts to sweep or submit until the last minute of the match.

Size aside, if no serious attempt is made to score by one athlete in 30 seconds to a minute, call stalling. If you need to shorten matches so athletes can keep an entertaining pace, do it.
 
Stalling takes different forms in different weights. Small fast guys invert, spin, use flexibility to retain and regain guard while making no serious attempts to sweep or submit until the last minute of the match.

Size aside, if no serious attempt is made to score by one athlete in 30 seconds to a minute, call stalling. If you need to shorten matches so athletes can keep an entertaining pace, do it.

Much harder to identify actual stalling in lower weights than in higher ones, but I agree on the match lengths. You don't need more than 6 minutes if points are involved.
 
Much harder to identify actual stalling in lower weights than in higher ones, but I agree on the match lengths. You don't need more than 6 minutes if points are involved.

Agreed, some of the heavier weights are blatant. But I think it's not that hard to see when someone is moving to maintain guard or make it hard to pass rather than trying to sweep or submit.
 
In the first two matches at +99kg, Orlando looked pretty dang good. He got that armlock off the crucifix pretty fast and when he faced Lister, he snapped Lister down, got past the guard multiple times, never let Lister near his legs and slowly crushed Lister from the back ride all the while. It was damn impressive and Lister had absolutely nothing to offer against him.

After that, he seemed to have less gas in the tank/less motivation to go for things actively.

So I don't have a problem with energized Orlando. I have a problem with "stalls forever without much penalty" Orlando.
 
damn i should have went to the trials this year for 99 kg seems like wasnt as stacked at all this year probably the weakest i have ever seen also do they still do same day weigh ins like they started in 2011 or can you weigh in day before?
 
I believe Sanchez would agree with you. He only used one skillset (wrestling) to score no points and get to top, where the wrestling style was FORCED to be on the ground with his competition with no way to really score any more points and he still won every match.

This does not show a flaw in the rules; it shows a flaw in heavyweight BJJ athlete's training structure and skill set. You have a guy coming in winning +99 with no attempts at BJJ, using takedowns and top pressure to beat the best large athletes BJJ has to offer. ADCC shouldnt change the rules; big athletes should change their mentality when it comes to training. Davi and Simoes did and it worked for them.

You know more than most of the rest of us-- would even a high level wrestler be able to score under ADCC rules against BJJ guys aggressively handfighting on the feet and then flopping to turtle every time they feel threatened? For example, Cobrinha was clearly a far superior wrestler to Rafa Mendes in 2013, but their match was still 0-0 after 40 minutes because of Rafa knowing just enough standup defense to avoid giving up 2 pts under the narrow ruleset.
 
yeah a bit boring, but can't blame a guy for playing by the rules, if you can't live without submissions then you should watch metamoris
 
I dont think even josh wouldve stand a chance vs Orlando in this rules set, you have to be a really really good wrestler, I dont think Josh has the wrestling skills to pull it out, it wouldve turn out to be a slapping fest.

Maybe Cain Velazquez them.
 
Maybe Cain Velazquez them.

If we are talking about mma guys, Daniel Cormier I think would be the best guess, but I don't know Orlando. Is just too massive with his center of gravity being so low, and with the lack of stalling calls, it would be very very hard to take him down, at least that's my Impression May be so wrestlers could give us a better idea on hoe to deal with this type of person
 
May be so wrestlers could give us a better idea on hoe to deal with this type of person

Just ask Rustam Chsiev. Like I asked before, didnt Rustam manhandle Orlando in the absolute in the last ADCC? Rustam is at least 90 lbs lighter, if not more.
 
Just ask Rustam Chsiev. Like I asked before, didnt Rustam manhandle Orlando in the absolute in the last ADCC? Rustam is at least 90 lbs lighter, if not more.

I really dont know, I dont remember watching that match, but I have a hard time believing that, or Orlando got much better at stalling. Rustam didnt man handle keenan or romulo or any of his opponents in this last adcc, he beat some of them rightfully but I dont think you can call that manhandling...If you say so I'll take your word for it.
 
I really dont know, I dont remember watching that match, but I have a hard time believing that, or Orlando got much better at stalling. Rustam didnt man handle keenan or romulo or any of his opponents in this last adcc, he beat some of them rightfully but I dont think you can call that manhandling...If you say so I'll take your word for it.

Im pretty sure I remember Rustam slamming Orlando. If anyone has video of it or remembers that match, please chime in.

Anyway, Orlando is doing something right if people are suggesting the likes of Josh Barnett, Cain, and Daniel Cormier as people likely to stop him or take him down and then still even being unsure about it.
 
You know more than most of the rest of us-- would even a high level wrestler be able to score under ADCC rules against BJJ guys aggressively handfighting on the feet and then flopping to turtle every time they feel threatened? For example, Cobrinha was clearly a far superior wrestler to Rafa Mendes in 2013, but their match was still 0-0 after 40 minutes because of Rafa knowing just enough standup defense to avoid giving up 2 pts under the narrow ruleset.

I would say Cobrinhas offense wasnt as good as you think, and he wasnt willing to take any risk.
 
I would say Cobrinhas offense wasnt as good as you think, and he wasnt willing to take any risk.

I'm happy to concede the analogy, but what of my original question. Would a legitimately good wrestler score points in this ruleset against a BJJ guy training just enough defensive wrestling to avoid a clean takedown straight to pin?
 
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