orlando snatchez: your new champ

[dokomoy]

Hopefully I'm not taking this thread too off topic but I'd be curious to hear Holt(or really anybody with good wrestling knowledge) analysis of these two AJ Agazarm matches



In the first 45ish seconds of this match AJ shoots for a single twice and both times he's in danger of getting his back taken almost immediately. I'm curious if AJ made a fundamental wrestling mistake or if Gary's defense was just on point or if this is an example of the difference between bjj wrestling and more traditional wrestling or what.

http://www.mma-core.com/videos/Otavio_Souza_vs_AJ_Agazarm_ADCC_2015/10108101

At about the 9 minute mark Otavio uses the threat of a heel hook to get a single leg which he uses to get behind AJ and eventually take his back, is this just a matter of Otavio being able to get so deep due to the threatened heel hook that it doesn't matter that AJ is a superior wrestler or did AJ make some sort of mistake that you wouldn't expect out of someone with his level of wrestling experience?

 

[mataleaos]

Hopefully I'm not taking this thread too off topic but I'd be curious to hear Holt(or really anybody with good wrestling knowledge) analysis of these two AJ Agazarm matches



In the first 45ish seconds of this match AJ shoots for a single twice and both times he's in danger of getting his back taken almost immediately. I'm curious if AJ made a fundamental wrestling mistake or if Gary's defense was just on point or if this is an example of the difference between bjj wrestling and more traditional wrestling or what.

I'd like to hear this too. I don't know that much about wrestling

 

[selfcritical]

Hopefully I'm not taking this thread too off topic but I'd be curious to hear Holt(or really anybody with good wrestling knowledge) analysis of these two AJ Agazarm matches



In the first 45ish seconds of this match AJ shoots for a single twice and both times he's in danger of getting his back taken almost immediately. I'm curious if AJ made a fundamental wrestling mistake or if Gary's defense was just on point or if this is an example of the difference between bjj wrestling and more traditional wrestling or what.

http://www.mma-core.com/videos/Otavio_Souza_vs_AJ_Agazarm_ADCC_2015/10108101

At about the 9 minute mark Otavio uses the threat of a heel hook to get a single leg which he uses to get behind AJ and eventually take his back, is this just a matter of Otavio being able to get so deep due to the threatened heel hook that it doesn't matter that AJ is a superior wrestler or did AJ make some sort of mistake that you wouldn't expect out of someone with his level of wrestling experience?

He dives to his knees as soon as he gets the single. Gary posts on the head, and when he starts making the turn toward the truck position.....AJ stays in the same spot. I have no idea why he isn't just finishing the single by running the pipe while staying on his feet. Certainly the way Gary is stepping he should be able to complete it.

 

[cjd]

In the first 45ish seconds of this match AJ shoots for a single twice and both times he's in danger of getting his back taken almost immediately. I'm curious if AJ made a fundamental wrestling mistake or if Gary's defense was just on point or if this is an example of the difference between bjj wrestling and more traditional wrestling or what.

http://www.mma-core.com/videos/Otavio_Souza_vs_AJ_Agazarm_ADCC_2015/10108101

At about the 9 minute mark Otavio uses the threat of a heel hook to get a single leg which he uses to get behind AJ and eventually take his back, is this just a matter of Otavio being able to get so deep due to the threatened heel hook that it doesn't matter that AJ is a superior wrestler or did AJ make some sort of mistake that you wouldn't expect out of someone with his level of wrestling experience?

I can't see the Souza match, but here are my thoughts on his match with Garry:

(1) Garry is a VERY good wrestler for a bjj guy. He has spent a ton of time working on that. He is an amazing scrambler and is a threat to jump on the back from just about anywhere.

(2) The first takedown attempt is a bit of a weak shot, as I think AJ didn't want to make contact (he didn't want to give Garry a chance to pull). The fact that he couldn't get deep penetration meant he had to deal with the scramble, although he nearly finalized the takedown at the end (Garry scrambled back to the feet). The second shot he also really didn't set up well (while they were handfighting a little bit, I think he really didn't want Garry to pull).

From what I've seen from AJ, he takes a lot of shots from way outside (in BJJ matches) because he really wants those two takedown points and doesn't want to give anyone a grip they can use to pull. He seems willing to spam takedown attempts to do this. He would probably look much better if he knew guys were 100% committed to wrestling him.

Regarding the Leo Vieira match, Vieira is a better athlete than AJ (IMO), and also one of the better BJJ takedown guys. I'm a pretty decent wrestler (D3 in college), and I sometimes have a harder time than I honestly should with athletic/strong BJJ guys (that have spent time working on takedowns). They give you a weird energy, rarely moving forward, and mostly look to keep you from putting your hands on them (and waiting for you to attack the legs) rather than proactively attacking. It requires a lot of patience to deal with them.

 

[brendan raedy]

Isn't Ohio State one of the best programs in the nation? I would think making it on the team (even as a walk on) would mean you are a beast.

You certainly have to be tough, but there is usually a wide range of people on a team. Some people are starters, some people are competing for a starting spot, some are spot starters. Others don't have a great chance at making it into the line-up but love the camaraderie, or the training, or being able to say they are a D1 athlete. Coaches sometimes keep others around if they are a model citizen, boost the team GPA, or all sorts of other factors. All that said, the number of wrestlers that make it from their freshman to 4th or 5th year is VERY low. That's not just toughness, it's WANTING to wrestle. It's difficult to communicate how much of a job wrestling at that level is, which is often made worse by seeing everyone else around you relaxing and having fun. You have to really, really want it. And be lucky enough to stay healthy.

 

[kjg1672]

You certainly have to be tough, but there is usually a wide range of people on a team. Some people are starters, some people are competing for a starting spot, some are spot starters. Others don't have a great chance at making it into the line-up but love the camaraderie, or the training, or being able to say they are a D1 athlete. Coaches sometimes keep others around if they are a model citizen, boost the team GPA, or all sorts of other factors. All that said, the number of wrestlers that make it from their freshman to 4th or 5th year is VERY low. That's not just toughness, it's WANTING to wrestle. It's difficult to communicate how much of a job wrestling at that level is, which is often made worse by seeing everyone else around you relaxing and having fun. You have to really, really want it. And be lucky enough to stay healthy.

I read a former wrestler Penn say that being on the wrestling team is like taking three extra classes on top of a typical 15 credit semester.

 

[brendan raedy]

I read a former wrestler Penn say that being on the wrestling team is like taking three extra classes on top of a typical 15 credit semester.

A lot of sports are like that. Football is even worse. Those guys are in meetings ALL DAY, starting at like 6am.

Some schools where academics aren't as rigorous or where particular student athletes don't take their studies as seriously might be a bit easier, but the time commitment is huge. Some coaches will turn a blind eye to athletes skipping class, others will send grad assistants or talk with professors to make sure you aren't. For some of these people even staying eligible takes a lot of time. Not all schools offer joke majors and classes, and when you put a student at a school like Penn, Northwestern, Stanford, UVA where they had no chance of getting in without sports, things can get rough. Most first years (freshman) have a certain number of mandatory study hall hours.

On top of that, trying to study after 2-3 practices a day while you are starving yourself to make weight at least once a week is rough. No other sport, other than the rowers from time to time, have to deal with that.

 

[Dirty Holt]

My thoughts on the videos posted:

Match 1 - AJ is clearly avoiding a tie to prevent a guard pull. He shoots from outside and tries a hop over which does not get him a td but gets an advantage. Second time he does the exact same thing, except he gets stuck for a second and does not think the guy will come up into a leg drag, but he does and he has to concede position. I personally think AJ would not have considered that a td by the other guy.

2nd match - AJ understands wrestling it out in the no points period is futile. Actually being on top is a disadvantage for him here. As soon as points go, his wrestling goes from non existant to very good. Had this been a wrestling referee, Souza would have given up stalling and fleeing the hold calls. AJ then takes him down with a single. Then what you are asking about occurs: Souza, while on bottom, attacks a leg and gets a sweep out of it. The fact that AJ was even able to get to his feet and almost negate both the deep leg lock and the sweep shows his scrambling ability, not his a lack of takedown defense.

Thats BJJ 101 right there by Souza; put him in a hold that he must either tap from or concede position.

 

[king56]

he was my trainer a few years back. congrats to him

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I'm curious why more ADCC competitors didn't simply accept the negative point for guard pulling and move on. In IBJJF, by contrast, the negative point for staying down on a double guard pull did not seem to have much effect on guard players who chose to simply eat the negative point and work for sweeps. Why didn't all the weak wrestlers at ADCC choose to take this tactic instead of spending 20 minutes defensive wrestling their way to the wrong side of a referee decision?

 

[yetanother]

If you take the negative point your opponent will stop trying to pass and just stall to the end and win.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

If you take the negative point your opponent will stop trying to pass and just stall to the end and win.

Right, except tat IBJJF has far more lax rules about stalling than ADCC, yet guys don't have any issues taking the negative point there.