Money aside, what is wrong with Trump's wall?

[JonnyRingo84]

Yes

Because illegal immigrants who work off the books can get paid less than minimum wage if need be or at the very least work for damn near MW for jobs that might otherwise pay more. That money might also not be taxed if its paid in cash. Also there's no need for getting insurance even if the job is dangerous which can lead to the immigrant worker getting hurt and going to the emergency room which drains public resources since those immigrants aren't being paid nearly enough to afford that medical care. Good for the employer since he can count on the immigrant keeping his mouth shut but bad for everyone else.

So not only does the American worker get undercut but depending on the job the American ta payer might be shouldering an extra burden. I don't necessarily blame the immigrant workers or anything, they're doing risky work for little money so they're obviously hard working but their large scale presence can have negative effects.

Not if they have more money to spend. Besides there are other places to cut costs if need be.

fair enough. that might be the case. im not claiming expert status on this issue.

 

[chardog]

I have a buddy that's a carpenter and he complains all the time about how guys fuck up the work. Maybe he's good and you weren't.

you get what you pay for. I built stuff for luxury homes along with the mexicans that I worked with. Another trade hot with mexicans is construction, which can pay very well. Not a well known thing, but lead cleanup, asbestos cleanup, can rack in a nice income ranging from $30-70 per hour. Tell me americans arent willing to do those jobs, it's laughable. It'll be tough for the average white guy to get one of those jobs though, mexicans fill quotas, white guys not so much.

 

[Madmick]

Walls won't stop money.

I don't see the immigrant flow as the chief problem. I see our collective drug demand funding an oligarchy south of our border and sustaining the conditions which result in impoverished Mexicans continuing to immigrate as the problem.

Walls are effective barriers. Anyone who disagrees needs to visit China. Trump just has no plans to build it.

It's hilarious. The Trump supporters in here whine about a "double standard" for Trump, arguing that Republicans are accused of racism whereas Democrats are given a free pass, but I noticed none of these super-intellectual Trump supporters are holding Trump's feet to the fire for his unapologetic unwillingness to provide details for how he intends to pay for any of his shit. These pitchforkers scream about how Bernie is some cockeyed fool for proposing free college, and for relying on overly ambitious economic growth rates as an assumption of revenue to fund his plans, yet Trump runs his big fucking mouth about getting the Mexican President to pay for the fence and somehow he gets a pass for that?

Literally the only candidate whose platform is less financially grounded and sensible than Bernie's is Trump's. No wonder he's been bankrupt so many times. Here's the reality that should worry you; if he bankrupts the US government, then the US government won't be able to bail him out like they did when he bankrupted his companies. There's nobody to supply a golden parachute to catch him if he screws up again....again. We saved him the last few times. Us. The American taxpayer. Now the American taxpayer wants to give him their checkbook? Oh, but he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, so he totally understands this stuff. Sure.


Let's just all admit it. This election has jack shit to do with the economy or jobs. This election is about race and classism. Everything else is just a reflector.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I have a buddy that's a carpenter and he complains all the time about how guys fuck up the work. Maybe he's good and you weren't.

Immigrants who learn on the fly probably aren't as good as an experienced carpenter or plumber but the cost effectiveness might make them an attractive alternative. If you're 70% as good at a trade that the guy who jumps through the hoops and red tape is but only cost 40% as much you might have the upper hand.

And as I alluded to earlier most legit construction companies have to have worker's compensation in case of an accident that leaves an employee injured. The illegal immigrant isn't even supposed to be here so breaking one more law(working on a construction site without this mandatory insurance) is something that a business might have them do and it allows the business to save even more money on top of paying the immigrant lower wages to begin with.

 

[Renard]

It's not a zero sum game, though. They spend their money into the economy. They also pay taxes that they never benefit from (like sales tax).

And again, they're doing really low level stuff. Carpenters do the skilled work while unskilled Mexican laborers are carrying materials, for example.

I calculated how much it costs the US government to educate the children of illegals, about 10,000$ a year per child and there are 4 million of them. That's 40B for education alone. The 12B a year they pay in sales and payroll tax is not even remotely close to pay for it, and that's only one service. Their parents have not paid into the system and it's the American taxpayers picking up the tab.

 

[Clippy]

fear and paranoia but you're talking about how times going to go backwards?

righto

 

[Rod1]

Yes

Because illegal immigrants who work off the books can get paid less than minimum wage if need be or at the very least work for damn near MW for jobs that might otherwise pay more. That money might also not be taxed if its paid in cash. Also there's no need for getting insurance even if the job is dangerous which can lead to the immigrant worker getting hurt and going to the emergency room which drains public resources since those immigrants aren't being paid nearly enough to afford that medical care. Good for the employer since he can count on the immigrant keeping his mouth shut but bad for everyone else.

So not only does the American worker get undercut but depending on the job the American ta payer might be shouldering an extra burden. I don't necessarily blame the immigrant workers or anything, they're doing risky work for little money so they're obviously hard working but their large scale presence can have negative effects.

Not if they have more money to spend. Besides there are other places to cut costs if need be.

Are they really? i have yet to find a deportee that claims that he was being paid peanuts, 10-20 dollars an hour seems to be the bulk of what these guys make.

You are right in the sense that being off-the-books creates a lot of issues and unfair labour practices. But then again with a deadlocked congress, i dont see a proper reform in place.

 

[chardog]

the irish of the early 1900s had a completely different relationship with america than modern southern mexicans? how is it sooo different?

land vs sea, geographic

if you REALLY wanted to stop illegal immigration, you dont need a wall. you need to enforce the laws against hiring them consistently. way cheaper, and more importantly....its a serious non-pandering solution.

There's multiple issues with this idea.

1. Politically, no advocacy.
2. Doesnt address smuggling
3. It's an opinion that it will be more effective. Does not preclude a wall. Money trucks exist to remove the temptation of thieves from a grocery store for instance, they still get robbed. Does it mean that it's ineffective, no, it just means that there's less temptation.
4. Who is to say that you cant support both methods? Sure you can imprison employers, but at the end of the day, who's going to enforce it? Who enforces it NOW?

basically, the practicality of your solution is wishy washy at best.

We still need a wall, in fact we have one now, just really crappy. I see the wall as basic infrastructure requirement. We spend billions on our roads, and the wall should fall under that umbrella. We improve roads ALL THE TIME, but when it comes to the wall, why is that suddenly off limit?

 

[kpt018]

I calculated how much it costs the US government to educate the children of illegals, about 10,000$ a year per child and there are 4 million of them. That's 40B for education alone. The 12B a year they pay in sales and payroll tax is not even remotely close to pay for it, and that's only one service. Their parents have not paid into the system and it's the American taxpayers picking up the tab.

But those kids grow up and pay into the system.

 

[sickc0d3r]

But those kids grow up and pay into the system.

Their parents also buy things in the meantime, which is demand, which creates other jobs. Also, teaching those dirty little illegal kids is a job. And all those people with jobs buy things and pay taxes. Circle of life.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Are they really? i have yet to find a deportee that claims that he was being paid peanuts, 10-20 dollars an hour seems to be the bulk of what these guys make.

You are right in the sense that being off-the-books creates a lot of issues and unfair labour practices. But then again with a deadlocked congress, i dont see a proper reform in place.

I'm talking from limited experience with construction and within that sphere you're actually right, they tend to get paid about $10/hr which isn't too bad but I believe its still less than someone whose working legally. The advantage of not paying the worker's comp and other sorts of red tape and regulation is probably bigger.

As far as immigrant workers in the fields I've always thought they get paid less but admittedly I don't have a shred of experience there.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Their parents also buy things in the meantime, which is demand, which creates other jobs. Also, teaching those dirty little illegal kids is a job. And all those people with jobs buy things and pay taxes. Circle of life.

Yes but sometimes these immigrant parents work dangerous jobs that require expensive medical treatment. Since they operate in a gray market they obviously don't have health benefits or the kind of cash to afford the treatment so those costs get put on the American tax payer. And its precisely the dangerous and physically taxing jobs that these immigrants work in; construction, meat processing, agriculture etc.

 

[Rod1]

I'm talking from limited experience with construction and within that sphere you're actually right, they tend to get paid about $10/hr which isn't too bad but I believe its still less than someone whose working legally. The advantage of not paying the worker's comp and other sorts of red tape and regulation is probably bigger.

As far as immigrant workers in the fields I've always thought they get paid less but admittedly I don't have a shred of experience there.

Immigrants on the field get paid by volume, so they tend to make quite a bit if they are experienced and can work pretty fast.

I know for example that Canada uses temporary agricultural worker programs, if it was just because of undercutting, it wouldnt make sense to fly people from Mexico and the Caribbean to work in their fields with full benefits.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Yes but sometimes these immigrant parents work dangerous jobs that require expensive medical treatment. Since they operate in a gray market they obviously don't have health benefits or the kind of cash to afford the treatment so those costs get put on the American tax payer. And its precisely the dangerous and physically taxing jobs that these immigrants work in; construction, meat processing, agriculture etc.

I think the argument I was reinforcing isn't that illegals poop gold bars or anything... just that, while there are definitely costs to having them here, there are also definitely benefits.
They are mostly just people who want to work and raise families. Some people think these issues can be addressed calmly with measured policy changes, rather than panic-wrestling Mexico into building us a wall

 

[RespectableDenizen]

The money is kind of a big deal. There are better ways to keep immigrants out than a wall. Like, actually deporting them and stopping businesses from employing them.

 

[lfd0311]

What the? The thread is about the wall Trump wants to build on the Mexican border. I didn't say shit about Europeans.

The context of the thread is about illegal immigration. illegal immigration is not confined simply to Mexicans.

 

[kpt018]

The context of the thread is about illegal immigration. illegal immigration is not confined simply to Mexicans.

So the wall on the Mexican border will prevent illegal immigration from Europe? Got it.

 

[TheComebackKid]

You nodded your head in agreement with a poster attacking a strawman.

That's not a strawman. That is how many on the left think and view the wall.

Almost every rebuttal I've heard to the wall by anyone significant person includes the "40% of illegals overstay their visas" which is not some statement calling for a borderless world but a fact used to question the effectiveness of the wall.

So you haven't heard all the people complaining that the wall is racist, divisive and product of hate and fear?

Again I don't think someone who argues against the effectiveness of the wall, ie "40% overstay their visas", makes one a naive child. It's the ones who claim it's morally wrong to put up a wall that are naive children.

 

[lfd0311]

So the wall on the Mexican border will prevent illegal immigration from Europe? Got it.

Way to intentionally dodge the point because you don't have a reply. Come on man, if you have to do that, once again that should be a sign.

 

[kpt018]

Way to intentionally dodge the point because you don't have a reply. Come on man, if you have to do that, once again that should be a sign.

Dude, it's in the f'n thread title. No one is talking about immigration from Europe.