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Money aside, what is wrong with Trump's wall?

Madmick said:
It's hilarious. The Trump supporters in here whine about a "double standard" for Trump, arguing that Republicans are accused of racism whereas Democrats are given a free pass, but I noticed none of these super-intellectual Trump supporters are holding Trump's feet to the fire for his unapologetic unwillingness to provide details for how he intends to pay for any of his shit.
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https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/pay-for-the-wall
 
lfd0311 said:
The context of the thread is about illegal immigration. illegal immigration is not confined simply to Mexicans.
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Actually the context of the thread is the discussion surrounding Trump's proposed wall on the Southern border so it is specific to Mexicans.

Nothing wrong with straying and talking about illegal immigration more generally from that but you shouldn't be surprised if people have Mexicans on their mind. ITT.
 
kpt018 said:
Dude, it's in the f'n thread title. No one is talking about immigration from Europe.
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We're talking about immigration. Even so, I pointed out exactly how and why illegal immigrants from Mexico specifically actually are taking American jobs, and how that drives down wages and harms Unions, and your response was "nah".
 
...................it might be so tall and fortified we might not be able to escape if problems arise and we might not know what's on the other side.
 
sickc0d3r said:
I think the argument I was reinforcing isn't that illegals poop gold bars or anything... just that, while there are definitely costs to having them here, there are also definitely benefits.
They are mostly just people who want to work and raise families. Some people think these issues can be addressed calmly with measured policy changes, rather than panic-wrestling Mexico into building us a wall :)
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And perhaps they can but measured policy changes can always be reversed. They can not be followed through on. It doesn't address drug smuggling and leaves us open for terrorist groups to come in. Advocating measured policy changes allows a politician, our government, and corporations to play the political game and avoid any real changes to the situation.

But when a candidate comes out and says "f you, we're building a wall, and mexico is paying for it" and then stands there and takes ALL the heat that should by all accounts doom his candidacy...well...that sounds like a person who is serious about addressing the problem even if the wall itself doesn't materialize or do what people hope it will.
 
5H3RD0G said:
...................it might be so tall and fortified we might not be able to escape if problems arise and we might not know what's on the other side.
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Damn, thats a good point actually. What happens if our govt gets taken over by some fanatical or even foreign regime? Now we're stuck.

The only solution is to allow the American people to own canon launchers. We'd bust ourselves out.
 
kpt018 said:
So the wall on the Mexican border will prevent illegal immigration from Europe? Got it.
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I dont recall how many immigrants come from europe, but the country with the single most LEGAL immigrants is mexico. So they have the most legal AND illegal immigrants. Mexico is BY FAR the biggest immigration issue compared to any country, so quit it with the copout.

you're basically putting your head in the sand if you think infiltration via border is a non issue.

it's pretty easy to see that America WANTS more mexicans, it's evident in the numbers of legal mexicans allowed in.
 
TheComebackKid said:
And perhaps they can but measured policy changes can always be reversed. They can not be followed through on. It doesn't address drug smuggling and leaves us open for terrorist groups to come in. Advocating measured policy changes allows a politician, our government, and corporations to play the political game and avoid any real changes to the situation.

But when a candidate comes out and says "f you, we're building a wall, and mexico is paying for it" and then stands there and takes ALL the heat that should by all accounts doom his candidacy...well...that sounds like a person who is serious about addressing the problem even if the wall itself doesn't materialize or do what people hope it will.
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Policy can change in a democracy... that's a good thing. It's also kind of a big reason to dislike a permanent solution like a wall that could end up not doing what people hope, when so many other less permanent and more flexible options exist.
 
chardog said:
I dont recall how many immigrants come from europe, but the country with the single most LEGAL immigrants is mexico. So they have the most legal AND illegal immigrants. Mexico is BY FAR the biggest immigration issue compared to any country, so quit it with the copout.

you're basically putting your head in the sand if you think infiltration via border is a non issue.

it's pretty easy to see that America WANTS more mexicans, it's evident in the numbers of legal mexicans allowed in.
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Other Central Americans make it through the Southern border as well. Most of the illegal immigrant workers I've seen are Guatemalan for instance.
 
sickc0d3r said:
Policy can change in a democracy... that's a good thing. It's also kind of a big reason to dislike a permanent solution like a wall that could end up not doing what people hope, when so many other less permanent and more flexible options exist.
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We are talking about border security...why wouldn't you want a permanent solution? Why would we want to leave a door open to take away border security?

When you advocate measured policy changes those things can easily be reversed by politicians looking for donors and votes or donors looking for cheap labor or sjw's looking to hold hands and sing kumbaya.

But if you put up a wall then it will alwasy be there to serve as a deterrent and much harder to take down politically. You can then still implement measured policy changes on top of it. Boom...secure border that cannot be easily reversed.
 
TheComebackKid said:
We are talking about border security...why wouldn't you want a permanent solution? Why would we want to leave a door open to take away border security?

When you advocate measured policy changes those things can easily be reversed by politicians looking for donors and votes or donors looking for cheap labor or sjw's looking to hold hands and sing kumbaya.

But if you put up a wall then it will alwasy be there to serve as a deterrent and much harder to take down politically. You can then still implement measured policy changes on top of it. Boom...secure border that cannot be easily reversed.
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Lots of reasons. Maybe because you could end up getting the "permanent" part without the "solution" part. Maybe because it's like getting a nose job to get rid of a pimple. Maybe because border patrol and surveillance is already working well enough to keep the flow of undocumented people circular and net zero, so policy that helps encourage more tax paying, legal workers is a more effective use of time and a better focus for resources at the moment.
 
sickc0d3r said:
Lots of reasons. Maybe because you could end up getting the "permanent" part without the "solution" part. Maybe because it's like getting a nose job to get rid of a pimple. Maybe because border patrol and surveillance is already working well enough to keep the flow of undocumented people circular and net zero, so policy that helps encourage more tax paying, legal workers is a more effective use of time and a better focus for resources at the moment.
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Again, any level of border patrol and surveillance can be decreased by politicans looking for the Latino vote, donors looking for cheap labor, and leftist looking to live out their liberal fantasies. It's also leaves us more open to drug and terrorist smuggling.

And please stop bringing up money and resources. We're $20 trillion in debt and lose/waste billions every other week it seems. If we were a fiscally sound nation that counted it's pennies and was frugal with its money then you can make that argument. But given our flagrant disregard for debt and waste when it comes to any other issue...ever...I can't take these kind of objections to building a wall seriously.
 
Land of the free...................building a wall does not equate to freedom.
 
TheComebackKid said:
Again, any level of border patrol and surveillance can be decreased by politicans looking for the Latino vote, donors looking for cheap labor, and leftist looking to live out their liberal fantasies. It's also leaves us more open to drug and terrorist smuggling.

And please stop bringing up money and resources. We're $20 trillion in debt and lose/waste billions every other week it seems. If we were a fiscally sound nation that counted it's pennies and was frugal with its money then you can make that argument. But given our flagrant disregard for debt and waste when it comes to any other issue...ever...I can't take these kind of objections to building a wall seriously.
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It's a democracy, whatcha gonna do? You have to let voters vote and politicians make promises, no matter how inconvenient that seems. If you're going to enact something that is really, really hard to remove once in place you should try to be damn sure it is popular it and that it is going to meet the intended goals. How much would you like to be able to repeal the ACA, for example?

Fair enough on your point about costs. If I thought a wall was needed I probably wouldn't care much about the cost.
 
sickc0d3r said:
It's a democracy, whatcha gonna do? You have to let voters vote and politicians make promises, no matter how inconvenient that seems. If you're going to enact something that is really, really hard to remove once in place you should try to be damn sure it is popular it and that it is going to meet the intended goals. How much would you like to be able to repeal the ACA, for example?
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You are right in the sense that permanence can create its own problems so that is something to consider as well. But my question is...what permanent issue could a wall present anywhere on the level of the ACA?

And it still could be reversed politically it would just require a much greater consensus than say decreasing border patrol or easing restrictions on illegals. And, I could be wrong, but from my vantage point that is a good thing.
 
I will only support the wall, if when its done, Hasselhoff performs a concert on top of it.
 
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