Instinctive grappling

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by gungfudisciple, Jan 19, 2006.

  1. gungfudisciple

    gungfudisciple Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    In deep meditative trance inventing new submission
    Is it possible t be a good grappler withut actual grappling training? If someone had a great instinct, and naturally knew how to physically react to an attack, counter and escape just based on his assessment of the situation at hand. For example, he would instinctively defend underhooks because that would allow the opponent to wrap him up. Or ducking or sprawling instinctively from takedown attempts?

    The reason I am asking is the closest Ive come to grappling is seing it on tv and online. I have trained in striking and conditining all my life, but recently I decided to expand my range and I got hooked on MMA. I want to learn to be a good grappler, wrestler and jiu-jitsu player, but until I can get some actual experience. But what I have been doing is meditating on it. I have visualized every grappling scenario I have ever seen. In my mind, I have gone through a million moves and feel that my instincts and mental feel are very sharp.

    I am loking for a place to train grappling s I will find out soon enough. My question is this: how god can one graple based spolely on instinct and feel?
     
  2. Cojofl

    Cojofl Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    4,133
    Likes Received:
    6
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.
     
  3. gracie_barra**

    gracie_barra** Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,227
    Likes Received:
    1
    Does anyone fuckn train anymore?
    Every day theres a new post : "Guys I roll with my friends in their backyard and I work them."
    "How do you get out of this submission hold? I cant ask the instructor, because my instructor is TUF season 1."
    "Hey guys I think I can make it to UFC: I know all the answers to every question ever asked, without training. "
    "Hey guys.. hey guys hey guys."
    Shut the hell up! And TRAIN!
     
  4. gungfudisciple

    gungfudisciple Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    In deep meditative trance inventing new submission
    I do train, extremely hard as a matter of fact. Visualization and meditation are legitimate training tools used by Randy Couture for example. I am not seeking a replacement for training but asking a specific question.
     
  5. Bama Zulu

    Bama Zulu Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    North Dakota
    Against a 3 month BJJ practioner you will get womped. Your answer is no.

    Train at a legit school.
     
  6. gungfudisciple

    gungfudisciple Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    In deep meditative trance inventing new submission
    Can a three month practicioner execute the bottom guard hip thrust escape into and armbar that Fedor Emelianenko defeated Mark Coleman with? Ive done that move to perfection in my mind, and on the mat although without a partner but the motion, speed and technique are all there.

    I am not saying I can beat ANY trained grappler, just letting you know that mentally, I am far from an amateur, and I dont think any beginner could beat me. Even though I have never grappled, I have a very solid repertoire of moves in my mind, ready to go. That has to be worth something.
     
  7. Cojofl

    Cojofl Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    4,133
    Likes Received:
    6
    You don't know shit
     
  8. vitor3000

    vitor3000 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    1
    If you walk into a bjj school and have the mentality that you could beat people based on how much you went through different situations in your mind you will not tap anyone out. Going to classes and actually rolling with people will make you a better grappler and you will learn things that will become instinctive to you.
     
  9. demonx

    demonx Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    655
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ballarat, Australia
    Things are very different in your mind.

    In your mind you cannot feel what 130 kilograms of weight crushing your chest feels like. Sure in your mind you might be able to just hip escape out. Not in real life.

    Get into te gym, wrestle with some white belts, blue belts, get your ass kicked a few dozen times and come back and tell us how your meditation has worked for you.

    In reguards to Randy mind training.

    What the hell other training do you think he's doing 5+ days a week? REAL training. His mind shit is when he's not really training, when he relaxes.

    Get a grip on reality.
     
  10. tomboruta

    tomboruta White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    gungfu, you don't know the finer points of grappling at all until you actually do it

    you can "know" every move in the world but never ever pull them off

    if you live close to a major city there should be a bjj school around, go there and try it
     
  11. Jimmy Cerra

    Jimmy Cerra Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    6,473
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    You may be a natural. However, there is probably only one in a billion who can do that. There is quite a difference between visualizing a move and having the muscle memory from practice with a live opponent.

    Can you adjust your moves to fit the person? Can you change tactics to suit your opponent's strengths and weaknesses? Can you break fall from different throws? Can you flow from move to move if one doesn't work? Can go from a failed or fake hip bump to a kimura to an omoplata? To a triangle to an armbar? What about when you are tired. Can you still execute your technique then? Can you counter the counters? Not everything in grappling is defense. Can you shoot without opening yourself up to a guillotine? Can you escape said guillotine?

    Now I am a big believer in individual drilling, but there is no substitute for actual practice against other people. I would rather spend $60 training at a good dojo than $50 on a UFC or instructional DVD.

    A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions. Don't estimate your potential without actual randori against real grapplers. It is arrogance to assume your skill without actual tests.
     
  12. KOU In3

    KOU In3 Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    1
    *edit* Nevermind. Just realized that I shouldn't feed the troll. *edit*
     
  13. Soulfly

    Soulfly Guest

    You are not your fucking khaki's.
    But seriously, people asked if I was a wrestler before going to judo class. I think that my past martial arts have helped me to relax and work with leverage instead of strength.
     
  14. gungfudisciple

    gungfudisciple Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    In deep meditative trance inventing new submission
    You and the guy who mentioned the 130 kgs crushing on my chest understood my question the best. The physical reality of grappling will definitely be a shock and I dnt expect my conditioning to be up to what I can do with striking. I can run for two hours at a light pace, I do that once or twice a week, I do 90 minutes of 5-10 minute rounds on the bags twice a week, I am starting to lift weights once a week, so I feel Im pretty fit but the body contact and breathing disruptions will probably have me wheezing after thirty seconds.

    Thanks for the responses, theres nothing left to do now but go and test out my theory in a real stuation. I will post my experience no matter what happens.
     
  15. gungfudisciple

    gungfudisciple Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    In deep meditative trance inventing new submission
    I am not saying that Ill dominate anyone, nor am I saying that I only meditate without training. I train a lot, just not any grappling and until I do I have been doing the visualizations and other mental techniques. There is room for both mental and physical training, they complement each other for a synergistic effect.
     
  16. colinm

    colinm Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,441
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Joe's Garage
    lol, u must be a troll.
     
  17. ImTechn9que

    ImTechn9que Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    lol
     
  18. Xiandi

    Xiandi Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    418
    Likes Received:
    0
    The answser is no.

    One time, I visualized myself doing a flying armbar, it was picture perfect, and I kept studying my mental image of it over and over for a week. I practiced it solo on the mat three dozen times at least. Then I tried it when I was rolling and failed miserably.

    Sure, visualization helps, especially when you're just starting to get something. Like when I was having difficulty with learning the armbar from the guard, I always mixed up which leg to swing over the head and bad things occured, I watched a DVD instructional on the guard and broke down the armbar they showed in my mind. I replayed and analyzed it over and over on screen and in my mind so that the next day, during practice, I at least knew the fundamental mechanics and setup of the armbar. That didn't mean I could actually do it right then, but I understood the move enough that I could drill it correctly and eventually it was commited to muscle memory.
     
  19. gungfudisciple

    gungfudisciple Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    In deep meditative trance inventing new submission
    Thats good enough for me. Its possible that my learning curve will be faster at least because of the mental foundation, thats how I learned the flying knee technique "dragon drinks water", but it took me six months to get the technique down on the bag.
     
  20. Matt Thornton

    Matt Thornton Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    When I got on the mats people were saying I was a natural because I caught a purple belt with an inverted heel hook, and was tapping people who had a couple of months on me. I even started to think I was. I had been studying instructionals like crazy and had never trained at an MMA gym before.

    Months later I realized it's just because I'd been wrestling for 2 or 3 years before I started, and had learned submissions. In retrospect, had I not wrestled, I would've gotten tooled on even worse than I did.

    You need the training, man. That's the idea behind BJJ and any effective martial art. What makes BJJ, Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, San Shou, etc. effective is the "aliveness" principle; the live sparring. Not only that, but you also need to drill moves constantly to get them into your muscle memory.

    Believe me, I used to think watching instructionals qualified as technique training, so I could spend all of my time rolling. It kind of helped. I know lots of moves. But they only work if the other person doesn't really know what I'm doing. I now realize that I didn't take enough time to drill the moves into my muscle memory. You'll save yourself a lot of frustration if you realize that right now.

    I suggest you buy Stephan Kesting's Grappling Drills DVD. Do all the solo drills you can, and get someone who's willing to do the partner drills, seeing as how nobody is going to get hurt and the other person doesn't even need to really know BJJ or anything about it. Be careful though; be 100% sure that you're doing the technique right; you don't want to form bad habits. I used to think I could Thai kick before I got formal kickboxing training at my MMA gym. It literally took me at least a month to retrain my body to get rid of the piece of crap I thought was a Thai kick and get myself to do real kicks.

    The Grappling Drills DVD combined with some good knowledge should make your progression through grappling a little easier. But just don't get discouraged when you realize most of your theories and what you think you know will prove to be paper thin and probably wrong. No offense, but just I used to be in your situation, and trust me when I say this, although the other people here sound like arrogant jerks in response to you, they hold a point. Until you've actually rolled at a gym, unfortunately, I don't know how else to say this, you really have no clue what you're talking about. No matter how much MMA you've watched.

    I'm just letting you know this so you don't get discouraged when you realize some of the guys on here were right. By all means, I, and hopefully everyone else here, want you to get into grappling and MMA, and I wish you the best of luck with it. The last thing I'd want for you is to get discouraged when you realize what you thought you knew, you really didn't, and you quit out of frustration or a damaged ego.

    Just realize that it's extremely and incredibly unrealistic that you're going to be a natural on the mat. Most people want to think that way of themselves; I know I did when I first started. You want to think you're the next big thing. It's natural. What separates the champions from the weekend warriors is dedication. Some people still think I'm a natural. I'm not. I bust my freaking ass to get better; I am ALWAYS thinking about MMA, watching instructionals, drilling, even during wrestling season, I come into my gym on Sundays and train from 10:30 a.m. to almost 4 p.m. I study fights in slow motion, and visualize myself as certain fighters. I take all the advice I can get, and I am a total day dreamer. You can be great at MMA, but it's more realistic to think about becoming great through extreme dedication rather than natural talent.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.