Instinctive grappling

gungfudisciple said:
Thats good enough for me. Its possible that my learning curve will be faster at least because of the mental foundation, thats how I learned the flying knee technique "dragon drinks water", but it took me six months to get the technique down on the bag.

What iceman says armbars the shit out of the correct.

You're not going going to lower your learning curve because of contemplation on techniques, you'll lower it by training hard. The mental dedication you might have gained from meditation will help you more than anything, because it'll see you through grueling training.

You may in fact be a natural at grappling, if you're consistently very good at picking up physical concepts. For instance, in football were you the first wide receiver to be able to run the route perfectly or did it take you half an hour to get a decent jumper in basketball? If yes, jiujitsu will come more easily to you than others. Mental visualization doesn't trump your innate ability to acquire skill in physical activity, so if you really want to know if you'll be a natural chart your progress in obtaining motor efficiency in sporting games.
 
gungfudisciple said:
I do train, extremely hard as a matter of fact. Visualization and meditation are legitimate training tools used by Randy Couture for example. I am not seeking a replacement for training but asking a specific question.

Yeah but Randy Couture TRAINS. He happens to have wrestled for the US ARMY for a good portion of his life and his camp happens to be deep. Ok thats great that you visualize and meditate, but do you realize that anyone who trains hard visualizes and meditates all day? You sit down and set aside the time to meditate while others set aside the time to train and practice. You think others don't meditate? I have dreams of submissions, escapes, and scrambles...The answer to your specific question is to actually train.

Just because you've watched Diego Sanchez stand on one foot with his eyes closed doesn't mean standing on one foot with your eyes closed will make you a good grappler.
 
gungfudisciple said:
Is it possible t be a good grappler withut actual grappling training? If someone had a great instinct, and naturally knew how to physically react to an attack, counter and escape just based on his assessment of the situation at hand. For example, he would instinctively defend underhooks because that would allow the opponent to wrap him up. Or ducking or sprawling instinctively from takedown attempts?

Your going to be better than the averge guy in the street. I think you would suck against someone decent who has been training regularily for 3 months. Visualization should not substitute for actual training when it comes to something like a MMA fight.

I have use the sort of visualization techniques that you described as part of my general approach to athletics. Visualization (imaginary jiu-jitsu), combined with actual practice is seemingly a good approach to getting better. I personally have found it diffiicult to impliment techniques that I have only seen, and not practices, regardless of how much I visualized using them.

The other thing I think it is worth pointing out is that much of submission grappling is about position and movement. Your never going to learn to move like a proper jiu-jitsu guy or be able to out position skilled opponents unless you train a lot.

Pinecone
 
I'm looking forward to the "I suck, I've grappled for at least two weeks" thread ;)
 
gungfudisciple said:
Can a three month practicioner execute the bottom guard hip thrust escape into and armbar that Fedor Emelianenko defeated Mark Coleman with? Ive done that move to perfection in my mind, and on the mat although without a partner but the motion, speed and technique are all there.

I am not saying I can beat ANY trained grappler, just letting you know that mentally, I am far from an amateur, and I dont think any beginner could beat me. Even though I have never grappled, I have a very solid repertoire of moves in my mind, ready to go. That has to be worth something.

Wow, the arogance. Ah well, I'm sure it will al change when you finally do start rolling around with other people!
 
gungfudisciple said:
You and the guy who mentioned the 130 kgs crushing on my chest understood my question the best. The physical reality of grappling will definitely be a shock and I dnt expect my conditioning to be up to what I can do with striking. I can run for two hours at a light pace, I do that once or twice a week, I do 90 minutes of 5-10 minute rounds on the bags twice a week, I am starting to lift weights once a week, so I feel Im pretty fit but the body contact and breathing disruptions will probably have me wheezing after thirty seconds.

Thanks for the responses, theres nothing left to do now but go and test out my theory in a real stuation. I will post my experience no matter what happens.

running at a light pace means fuck all in regards to grappling. grappling is all about anaerobic work capacity. an aerobic base is helpful, but its unlikely whatever aerobic base you have would be all that high unless you're taking running a lot more seriously than just 'running at a light pace'.

some people are born with the physical gifts that makes them really good at grappling. whether you're one of those people or not has fuck all to do with visualisation.

visualisation is a great tool once you have an idea of what the real thing feels like. trying to visualise grappling when you've never trained is a joke.

on the whole I give you a 6.5
definate bonus points for the couture reference.
 
Where do you live "gungfu"? Perhaps we can assist in recommending some schools from your area..
 
Will Wheeler said:
Wow, the arogance. Ah well, I'm sure it will al change when you finally do start rolling around with other people!


agreed, "no begginer can beat me" please.................you cant beat a begginer
 
gungfudisciple said:
Can a three month practicioner execute the bottom guard hip thrust escape into and armbar that Fedor Emelianenko defeated Mark Coleman with? Ive done that move to perfection in my mind, and on the mat although without a partner but the motion, speed and technique are all there.

I am not saying I can beat ANY trained grappler, just letting you know that mentally, I am far from an amateur, and I dont think any beginner could beat me. Even though I have never grappled, I have a very solid repertoire of moves in my mind, ready to go. That has to be worth something.


dude , seriously STFU, you would get your ass handed to you by any white belt worth his stripes. go train.



ROLLING WITH FREINDS DOES NOT = great technique and timing. you just havent rolled with anybody good to know the difference.
 
Using visualization instead of grappling training is the same as using those stupid electrical suction cups on your pecs instead of bench pressing- useless.

There are a ton of small nuances to BJJ that go unseen when watching a UFC or an instructional. You need to be shown proper technique, then drill the shit of it on a resisting opponent to be able to use it. You will NEVER get an armbar by just falling back with your leg over the guy's face, if you do not know how to apply it. Visualization helps, but you cannot replace the basics with it.

I see new jackasses come in all the time who think they can pull off armbars on the 1st day because they saw it on a UFC & visualized it, then look like idiots failing. They get embarassed, then dominated, & never show up again. If you go into BJJ with the attitude that you're gonna owm people, the same will likely happen to you. You are at the bottom of the BJJ totem pole, like all newcomers. Embrace that, & train your ass off.
 
Iceman5592 said:
When I got on the mats people were saying I was a natural because I caught a purple belt with an inverted heel hook, and was tapping people who had a couple of months on me. I even started to think I was. I had been studying instructionals like crazy and had never trained at an MMA gym before.

Months later I realized it's just because I'd been wrestling for 2 or 3 years before I started, and had learned submissions. In retrospect, had I not wrestled, I would've gotten tooled on even worse than I did.

You need the training, man. That's the idea behind BJJ and any effective martial art. What makes BJJ, Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, San Shou, etc. effective is the "aliveness" principle; the live sparring. Not only that, but you also need to drill moves constantly to get them into your muscle memory.

Believe me, I used to think watching instructionals qualified as technique training, so I could spend all of my time rolling. It kind of helped. I know lots of moves. But they only work if the other person doesn't really know what I'm doing. I now realize that I didn't take enough time to drill the moves into my muscle memory. You'll save yourself a lot of frustration if you realize that right now.

I suggest you buy Stephan Kesting's Grappling Drills DVD. Do all the solo drills you can, and get someone who's willing to do the partner drills, seeing as how nobody is going to get hurt and the other person doesn't even need to really know BJJ or anything about it. Be careful though; be 100% sure that you're doing the technique right; you don't want to form bad habits. I used to think I could Thai kick before I got formal kickboxing training at my MMA gym. It literally took me at least a month to retrain my body to get rid of the piece of crap I thought was a Thai kick and get myself to do real kicks.

The Grappling Drills DVD combined with some good knowledge should make your progression through grappling a little easier. But just don't get discouraged when you realize most of your theories and what you think you know will prove to be paper thin and probably wrong. No offense, but just I used to be in your situation, and trust me when I say this, although the other people here sound like arrogant jerks in response to you, they hold a point. Until you've actually rolled at a gym, unfortunately, I don't know how else to say this, you really have no clue what you're talking about. No matter how much MMA you've watched.

I'm just letting you know this so you don't get discouraged when you realize some of the guys on here were right. By all means, I, and hopefully everyone else here, want you to get into grappling and MMA, and I wish you the best of luck with it. The last thing I'd want for you is to get discouraged when you realize what you thought you knew, you really didn't, and you quit out of frustration or a damaged ego.

Just realize that it's extremely and incredibly unrealistic that you're going to be a natural on the mat. Most people want to think that way of themselves; I know I did when I first started. You want to think you're the next big thing. It's natural. What separates the champions from the weekend warriors is dedication. Some people still think I'm a natural. I'm not. I bust my freaking ass to get better; I am ALWAYS thinking about MMA, watching instructionals, drilling, even during wrestling season, I come into my gym on Sundays and train from 10:30 a.m. to almost 4 p.m. I study fights in slow motion, and visualize myself as certain fighters. I take all the advice I can get, and I am a total day dreamer. You can be great at MMA, but it's more realistic to think about becoming great through extreme dedication rather than natural talent.

great post man you should write for a magazine or somthing
 
Train at a gym. After you are good then the meditation and mental drills will also help. Your opponent in your mind will always do what your mind wants him to do. You need to go live at a gym.
 
Iceman you make sherdog worth coming for. Seriously your prose is so refreshing on this board.
 
Bama Zulu said:
Iceman you make sherdog worth coming for. Seriously your prose is so refreshing on this board.


yes, he makes me feel better about myself
 
gungfudisciple said:
Can a three month practicioner execute the bottom guard hip thrust escape into and armbar that Fedor Emelianenko defeated Mark Coleman with? Ive done that move to perfection in my mind, and on the mat although without a partner but the motion, speed and technique are all there.

I am not saying I can beat ANY trained grappler, just letting you know that mentally, I am far from an amateur, and I dont think any beginner could beat me. Even though I have never grappled, I have a very solid repertoire of moves in my mind, ready to go. That has to be worth something.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH yeh i can "visualize" myself doing a a triple backflip and landing in the splits, but every time i try it in real life i hit the deck, what gives?
 
unless you are john pesek or lou thesz reborn then you would get subbed by almost any whitbelt with three stripes at the nearest Gracie Barra or equivelent school. It is great that you meditate on grappling but now you should meditate on why you havent started actual training.
 
I disagree with most on here. I thinks he ready for Pride or UFC :wink:
 
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