Hook problem

[Nuclearlandmine]

So now are you going to spam Canelo's pic to help your points?

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

I should note that Diaz's posture is kind of shit.... So that he might look like he look like Canelo and all, his hook is still shit. And in your example he is halfway to fall over his lead leg. He doesn't pull his weight back and keep his posture up to maximize his force of the punch like Canelo.

Whatever works.

And I'll say again, about Nick's KO-hook of Lawler...
"Idk if technique-wise it's the best looking hook, but it helps demonstrate the concept of where the power comes from and how it's transfered."

 

[Gregolian]

The problem I have with using that pic of Nick dropping Lawler as an example of a good hook is where is elbow is...

See how it's practically "behind" his body? It means when it lands all the stress is hitting his shoulder whereas something like this:

You don't see the elbow peeking behind his back. Yeah, Nick managed to drop Lawler with that hook, but there is this other guy that throws hooks just like that that got trounced once too:

It leaves that entire side of his face open and if you miss, as shown in that first gif you are screwed.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

It is not exactly demonstrate the concept if it doesn't look right, you know. And "whatever works" is a weak excuse for piss poor technique that only happened to look superficially like someone who is technically sound.

 

[a guy]

Everyone is always expected to be in the exact proper position at all times... in reality, right.

You're misunderstanding the arguments being made. You picked examples trying to show power generation in a hook, but you really picked examples that show even bad technique can put someone on their ass when they're standing square with their legs straight, even circling into the punch in one example. The fact that those guys go down has a lot less to do with power than with their shitty stances. It's like if I tried to show strength by lifting the bar. I could use whatever form I wanted and still get it up.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

The problem I have with using that pic of Nick dropping Lawler as an example of a good hook is where his elbow is...

See how it's practically "behind" his body? It means when it lands all the stress is hitting his shoulder whereas something like this:

....

True. But not everything lands ideally. And Lawler was coming forward, kinda walked into Nick's hook.

The main point was about the torque of the body, chest transferring the power.

 

[Gregolian]

It was my understanding that the power in a hook comes from the legs and hips, not your chest.

 

[a guy]

It was my understanding that the power in a hook comes from the legs and hips, not your chest.

This. You can use a stretch to get a little more heat, especially if you're throwing from a more bladed starting position, but the legs are as always where the power comes from. Posture is important in transferring that power and saying defensively sound.

 

[Discipulus]

CoffeeandBear, we all know that not every punch can land perfectly, but we're talking about the CORRECT form for a powerful hook that doesn't torque the shoulder. In other words, we're talking about how to throw a PERFECT hook--so why are you showing examples of admittedly imperfect punches?

Also, "anyone else ever drop Robbie Lawler in his 13 year career?" is hilarious, considering that Lawler took dozens of punches from Hendricks unfazed, and several from Jake Ellenberger. It's pretty clear that Robbie was unpolished and overaggressive early on in his career, and that's why he got dropped. Otherwise you're insinuating that Nick Diaz hits harder than both Hendricks and Ellenberger (and Lorenz Larkin, and Scott Smith, and Adlan Amagov, and Melvin Manhoef).

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

You're misunderstanding the arguments being made. You picked examples trying to show power generation in a hook, but you really picked examples that show even bad technique can put someone on their ass when they're standing square with their legs straight, even circling into the punch in one example. The fact that those guys go down has a lot less to do with power than with their shitty stances. It's like if I tried to show strength by lifting the bar. I could use whatever form I wanted and still get it up.

Is this kid square?

(mouth wide out, good or bad technique? nevermind)

And NONE of the examples of Canelo show the opponents' stances.
But they DO SHOW the guy fully rotated, with chest perpendicular to the target... like the pic(s) of Nick.

Actually I could have used Sinister's own Av to illustrate the concept I was hoping to get across:

That chest is stretched.

 

[Gregolian]

CoffeeandBear, we all know that not every punch can land perfectly, but we're talking about the CORRECT form for a powerful hook that doesn't torque the shoulder. In other words, we're talking about how to throw a PERFECT hook--so why are you showing examples of admittedly imperfect punches?

Also, "anyone else ever drop Robbie Lawler in his 13 year career?" is hilarious, considering that Lawler took dozens of punches from Hendricks unfazed, and several from Jake Ellenberger. It's pretty clear that Robbie was unpolished and overaggressive early on in his career, and that's why he got dropped. Otherwise you're insinuating that Nick Diaz hits harder than both Hendricks and Ellenberger (and Lorenz Larkin, and Scott Smith, and Adlan Amagov, and Melvin Manhoef).

To be fair, Manhoef never really cracked Lawler flush on the head.

Actually I could have used Sinister's own Av to illustrate the concept I was hoping to get across:

That chest is stretched.

And that character is from a goddamn arcade video game where guys can shoot fireballs out of their hands.....

 

[Discipulus]

To be fair, Manhoef never really cracked Lawler flush on the head.

Good point.

And that character is from a goddamn arcade video game where guys can shoot fireballs out of their hands.....

Yes, but do they flex their chests when they shoot those fireballs? I rest my case.

 

[Discipulus]

Is this kid square?

(mouth wide out, good or bad technique? nevermind)

And NONE of the examples of Canelo show the opponents' stances.
But they DO SHOW the guy fully rotated, with chest perpendicular to the target... like the pic(s) of Nick.

Actually I could have used Sinister's own Av to illustrate the concept I was hoping to get across:

That chest is stretched.

You're confused, man. What does it matter if that guy is square, or if Canelo's opponents are? The examples were meant to illustrate what a good hook looks like, so the opponents don't matter. The opponents in your examples DO matter, however, because their shitty positioning is the only reason that those hooks were effective. This discussion isn't about the opponent's position, that's just the reason that your examples were poor.

Edit: Also, and I believe I said this earlier, there's nothing wrong with getting that stretch reflex involved to get up speed at the start of the hook, but landing with the chest and shoulder still stretched out like a rubber band causes the entire force of impact to go right into the shoulder joint, which is not designed for that kind of stress.

 

[Gregolian]

Yes, but do they flex their chests when they shoot those fireballs? I rest my case.

You cheeky motherfucker.

If flexing the chest is what gives power Coffee ...... then you are advocating they all throw arm punches.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

CoffeeandBear, we all know that not every punch can land perfectly, but we're talking about the CORRECT form for a powerful hook that doesn't torque the shoulder. In other words, we're talking about how to throw a PERFECT hook--so why are you showing examples of admittedly imperfect punches?

It would help if the OP would give better detail about what we're dealing with here. What his hook(motion) looks like. But what I wanted to get across to the guy was that THINKING/FOCUSING on the chest muscle and torque was what helped me.

My first comment to the guy...

You may not be torquing your upper body enough... I never really knew how to throw a hook (especially for power) until I figured out that you don't really "throw" a hook as much as you slingshot a hook. The twist of your torso is what drives the punch... your arm and fist are almost just along for the ride--at least that's how I think of it in your minds eye.

And right above my post was...

You don't rotate your head when you throw a hook, you rotate your torso and hips.

Find the right moment to contract your chest muscles.

And that's what I've been saying all along.

Now, about the post with Nick KO'ing Lawler, I INCLUDED a caveat about the "technique", may not be the best looking, but it could help with the CONCEPT of transferring power through TORQUE and the CHEST to the 'hook' (arm & fist).

 

[Discipulus]

It would help if the OP would give better detail about what we're dealing with here. What his hook(motion) looks like. But what I wanted to get across to the guy was that THINKING/FOCUSING on the chest muscle and torque was what helped me.

My first comment to the guy...



And right above my post was...



And that's what I've been saying all along.

Now, about the post with Nick KO'ing Lawler, I INCLUDED a caveat about the "technique", may not be the best looking, but it could help with the CONCEPT of transferring power through TORQUE and the CHEST to the 'hook' (arm & fist).

So why would you choose an example with inferior technique when there are hundreds of fighters out there who throw good, solid hooks that demonstrate the concept of power transfer even better?

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

It was my understanding that the power in a hook comes from the legs and hips, not your chest.

Same here.
And it's transferred from the core through a taut chest muscle, and eventually released.

The OP is talking about problems with a "slapping punch" and asking "how far do I keep my shoulder in the socket"...


The overall CONCEPT is what he may have been struggling with.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

So why would you choose an example with inferior technique when there are hundreds of fighters out there who throw good, solid hooks that demonstrate the concept of power transfer even better?

I echoed Sinister's example, actually.

It's the overall concept that helped me....

This pic is great. Shows how Canelo's chest/shoulders are almost flat, perpendicular to his target... lots of torque (lots of power transferring from the chest to 'the hook')

 

[Captain_Dammitt]

To the op, this is just what helpes me so if somethings off feel free to chime in.

I'd start by practicing locking your arm in place and twisting. Getting used to the torque, then incorporate in the contraction of the chest at the end to bring your arm across instead of slapping with it. Also focusing on the elbow helped me tremendously.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I echoed Sinister's example, actually.

You first echoed, then you followed with a bunch of inferior examples.......