Hook problem

[a guy]

Is this kid square?

(mouth wide out, good or bad technique? nevermind)

And NONE of the examples of Canelo show the opponents' stances.
But they DO SHOW the guy fully rotated, with chest perpendicular to the target... like the pic(s) of Nick.

Actually I could have used Sinister's own Av to illustrate the concept I was hoping to get across:

That chest is stretched.

I think you misunderstood my post as well. No one is actually disagreeing with what you're saying by the way. It's just that the way you're wording it and the examples you're using are throwing people off.

 

[apizur**]

You may not be torquing your upper body enough.

I felt the same way about my hook, no real power, kind of reaching too much with it.

I never really knew how to throw a hook (especially for power) until I figured out that you don't really "throw" a hook as much as you slingshot a hook. The twist of your torso is what drives the punch... your arm and fist are almost just along for the ride--at least that's how I think of it in your minds eye.

Watch this vid see if it helps...

[YT]7BiaQa18EFw[/YT]

Total crap.

 

[apizur**]

Recognizing and reacting to opponents being in bad positions is part of what makes you good fighter.

And when it comes down to it, in a fight... effectiveness > proper technique.


No opponent, just a demonstration of Chuck's "power hook"...

(pic of a different punch than above)

Hook = Chest (and torque)

A stretched chest doesn't mean that shoulder is dragging the punch behind it, it means both are accelerating within a full range of motion. There's no "whip" effect, it's like running while you're on a conveyor belt, your top speed is a product of both your legs and the conveyor belt simultaneously.... not one after the other.

It is much like striking a buttocks or a handball. The arm flailing back before accelerating is to give itself some distance in which to build velocity. The chest and shoulder pulling the punch through the motion creates its own acceleration and velocity, the trunk rotating creates its own acceleration and velocity, the legs twisting the hips create their own acceleration and velocity. Their powers combined, we are CAPTAIN HOOK!

...but seriously, since the majority of the force is transferred from the arm, and the remaining body force is at the mercy of the strength of the shoulder upon impact... it is important to give the arm room to accelerate. That's why the arm "chambers" back in these big punches. Think about basic anat and phys... a muscle is strongest in a contracted position, therefore a strength advantage in a stretched position is impossible. A survival "don't let me tear my shoulder apart" reaction from the body is no method to rely on when producing power. Hence why you don't see a lot of 40+ year old fast ball pitchers.

 

[fightingrabbit]

Everyone is always expected to be in the exact proper position at all times... in reality, right.

Exactly. I'm glad we got that cleared up.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

You first echoed, then you followed with a bunch of inferior examples.......

You have a problem with Nick Diaz, got it.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

To the op, this is just what helpes me so if somethings off feel free to chime in.

I'd start by practicing locking your arm in place and twisting. Getting used to the torque, then incorporate in the contraction of the chest at the end to bring your arm across instead of slapping with it. Also focusing on the elbow helped me tremendously.

Arm 'locked' in place where your ELBOW is IN LINE with your shoulders?
Or further back, to the point where your CHEST MUSCLE is slightly TAUT?


Instead of thinking of it as "contracting the muscle"... it might help to think "releasing the slingshot". And the moment of when to 'release' is a matter of timing that you need to get a feel for.

 

[apizur**]

Dude, you DO NOT know what you're talking about. Tension is the enemy of speed, and speed is 50% of the element of power. You've clearly demonstrated you don't understand punch dynamics as well as most of us here and no amount of "reinterpreting" and back pedaling is going to erase that. You've learned a lot in this thread, just take the info and move on. You're just making yourself look like a chump and keep triggering the subscription everyone has on this thread so that you can continue to contribute nothing.

PLEASE, STOP.

 

[Babba]

lol how can someone grossly misunderstand something u do every day

 

[giancana]

Bernard Hopkins' Perfect Execution: The Hook


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfLlvulIkdk&feature=youtu.be

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

You have a problem with Nick Diaz, got it.

I merely have issues with people who used him and other MMA fighter as "technical example" especially in boxing. Didnt I point out how odd the example of Chuck as well?

 

[MightySparrow]

Hey guys I'm having trouble with my hook after snooping around some threads I've seen numerous times the importance of keeping your shoulders in the sockets when punching and all my other punches are fine except the hook. I feel like my shoulder comes forward and it's almost a slapping punch.

Anyone have any drills or tips to correct this? Also how far is too much out of the socket or perfect? I might be over thinking my problem, ie not 100% sure about how much is to much out of the socket.

I can see from the thread count that many have answered before me, and hopefully they got more specifics and so were able to give more qualified advice. In general, I would keep the hook tight (i.e. shoulder in the pocket I suppose) unless I would throw a left swing, which I would sometimes do, but it really is a different thing.

Maybe it depends on fighting style to an extent. Textbook hooks are tight, and I always went with that as it made sense for me. But every fighter has to go his own way to a certain extent. If you have a coach, do listen to him on this issue. Also, work your technique in general of course.

I will suggest one drill that maybe is not obvious but has helped me a lot in developing tight, powerful hooks: In the gym, take a barbell and place a suitable weight upon it (20-40 pounds maybe) and place it in a corner. Now, swing it from side to side, making sure to contract and involve the muscles to the side of your abdomen. Maybe 3x20 reps or so. I have heard people refer to this exercise as "landmine swing". I believe it helps with all punches, but especially so with hooks, when you want to keep them tight.

Just my "amateurish" five cents, but you may want to give it a go unless you got better advice already.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

I think you misunderstood my post as well. No one is actually disagreeing with what you're saying by the way. It's just that the way you're wording it and the examples you're using are throwing people off.

Well, it's kinda supposed to.

The OP was talking about "sockets", and how far forward can his shoulder go, and how much "out of socket" is perfect, and "slapping" punches, etc... sounds to me that he's muscling too much of the punch and/or not twisting/torquing enough. Never really loading up the shot.

I'm betting that his issue is more CONCEPTUAL than technical. Meaning that it may help to think about it differently. Approach it differently.

If everything he's hearing/reading is about keeping "proper socket-shoulder disciple"... that may be what's fcuking him up; worrying or focusing on that too much.

My wording:
- You don't "throw" a hook, as much as you "slingshot" a hook
- You may not be torquing enough, the twist of the torso drives the punch
- Arm and fist are almost just along for the ride

My examples/pics:
- Nick-Lawler pics; How often do they show overhead shots like that? It's a go view to show the twist/torque
- Rampage pic sequence shows a hook being created virtually out of nowhere (no twist/torque to drive the punch), illustrating the slingshoting effect you can generate from your chest muscle elasticity


And, come to think of it, none of the Canelo examples/pics show his chest/shoulder position at the moment of impact (or before). They show his position AFTER impact, in the follow-through.

So this IDEA of a perfect "shoulder in socket" hook might just perpetuating the mental scotoma the OP may have.

 

[apizur**]

My wording:
- You don't "throw" a hook, as much as you "slingshot" a hook
- You may not be torquing enough, the twist of the torso drives the punch
- Arm and fist are almost just along for the ride

And we're telling you this is 2/3rds wrong.

The torso twist is the only part you're getting right. Once again you DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND the biomechanics of punching. Stop acting like you were saying the right things the whole time. 75% of this thread is people correcting you, open your eyes. Take the correction and move on.

 

[fightingrabbit]

Once again you DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND the biomechanics of punching. .

Buncha scientists up in here.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

And we're telling you this is 2/3rds wrong.

The torso twist is the only part you're getting right. Once again you DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND the biomechanics of punching. Stop acting like you were saying the right things the whole time. 75% of this thread is people correcting you, open your eyes. Take the correction and move on.

A lot of that 75% is people having a problem with the mere mention of Nick Diaz in the "Technique" board, I suspect. Anyway, I'M NOT CLAIMING to fully understand the biomechanics of punching.

Here critique my Hook...

Here's the mental process during the punch sequence (I just throw a cross):

• Initiate torque...
• Attain and maintain chest muscle tautness... (w/arm & fist cocked in "hook" position, along for the ride)
• Torque...
• Torque...
• Torque...
• Torque...
• Approaching target...
• Release chest muscle elasticity effect to propel punch...
• Halt torque...
• Swing... (contract chest muscle)
• Swi........ (contrac...............)
• Impact target...

Note: of course this all happens in an instant, and its more fluid that it may sound

I'm NOT thinking "Pivot"
I'm NOT thinking "Throw" the punch at any moment
I'm NOT thinking "Keep Shoulder in Socket"
I'm NOT thinking "Keep Elbow Aligned with Shoulders"

And I don't think "Swing the Arm" until that last bit before impact.

P.S. I return my rear hand to a defensive position just fine.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

^You know who am i thinking off with that reply? KarateStylist.
And this is the first time i see someone mention about "slingshot" a hook. A hook is throw, not slingslot. You only feel like you slingshot it when you are trying to get power inefficiently with your mechanics, to the point where it affect balance/posture and you almost fall over, which is basically what Chuck taught and Diaz did, even Rampage look like he's about to fall over to Chuck with the rear foot over the air too. Canelo doesn't do that. His mechanics is sound to the point where he's able to maximize his lead hook without affecting his posture and balance. He looked effortlessly too, unlike other examples. There's differences.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

...

Notice Alvarez's chest can stay upright, back straight, shoulder in the socket.

These two the same punch ?
Is the shoulder "in the socket" below?

^Attaining chest muscle tautness^

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Eh....i don't think there's any chest muscle tightness there....Then again, i'm not the one staring at his chest to see if it have any tightness.....

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

^You know who am i thinking off with that reply? KarateStylist.
And this is the first time i see someone mention about "slingshot" a hook. A hook is throw, not slingslot. You only feel like you slingshot it when you are trying to get power inefficiently with your mechanics, to the point where it affect balance/posture and you almost fall over, which is basically what Chuck taught and Diaz did, even Rampage look like he's about to fall over to Chuck with the rear foot over the air too. Canelo doesn't do that. His mechanics is sound to the point where he's able to maximize his lead hook without affecting his posture and balance. He looked effortlessly too, unlike other examples. There's differences.

Would you say Rampage slingshot this punch at all?

People may conceptualize certain words/phrases differently.

Here, Rampage generates a good amount of power from that chest muscle elasticity 'effect'... barely any rotating motion in his body/torso. He loaded up the energy from his chest/elasticity and completes the punch with "swing" the rest of the way (muscle contraction). In the video, you can see Rampage lift his leg of the ground for just an instant for counterweight as he's delivering the punch.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

No i don't. That doesn't look like it to me. He was basically reaching for the hook to capitalize on the opening there.