Hook problem

[delmata]

I don't agree with either of these. Relying on that elastic stretch reflex to throw the hook is a recipe for shoulder injury. There's a bit of drag on the hook to get it going sometimes, but you should never whip the hook into the target to the point where your shoulder is well ahead of your fist.

As for Bas, he doesn't know as much about scientific striking as he thinks he does. Don't get me wrong, he knows a lot of good shit, but I wouldn't go to a Kyokushin guy first if I wanted to learn about left hooks.

To put his advice in perspective: Bas also used to say that the jab is useless in MMA.

I agree with this, this is stretch reflex used in the wrong way, and learning to throw hook with exaggerated "elbow/fist behind shoulder" is both technically wrong and dangerous IMO. I was initially taught this way and my shoulder wasn't too happy, especially if the punch connects while your elbow is still behind the shoulder. To use stretch reflex to a degree, to build momentum is ok, but to rely completely on it is dangerous, not to mention that the punch is telegraphed and slow.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

I agree with this, this is stretch reflex used in the wrong way, and learning to throw hook with exaggerated "elbow/fist behind shoulder" is both technically wrong and dangerous IMO. I was initially taught this way and my shoulder wasn't too happy, especially if the punch connects while your elbow is still behind the shoulder. To use stretch reflex to a degree, to build momentum is ok, but to rely completely on it is dangerous, not to mention that the punch is telegraphed and slow.

To build momentum, right!

EDIT: I was initially taught that the pivot was the important part of the hook. It's really about the chest (CONCEPTUALLY, that is what helped me).

Here's Rampage with virtually stationary body movement (not much torso twist at all), but yet generating KO power with that stretch effect...

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

Here's Nick "telegraphing"... yet being effective; KO/KD power...

Chest stretched, torso torque.

 

[fightingrabbit]

Not to be a contrarian, but most of those examples of people being dropped by shots in MMA is usually less due to the users technique, and more to due to the shitty positioning of the fighter getting punched. And if you look at all the guys getting punched in those examples, they are in terrible positioning to be taking any shot in the first place.

You see MMA fighters get dropped all the time by arm punches, doesn't mean the technique used to drop them was fundamental or even correct.

 

[delmata]

Not to be a contrarian, but most of those examples of people being dropped by shots in MMA is usually less due to the users technique, and more to due to the shitty positioning of the fighter getting punched. And if you look at all the guys getting punched in those examples, they are in terrible positioning to be taking any shot in the first place.

You see MMA fighters get dropped all the time by arm punches, doesn't mean the technique used to drop them was fundamental or even correct.

Agreed.

 

[fightingrabbit]

It's like putting up a picture of Seth Petruzelli dropping Kimbo Slice with his jab and saying "Look, this jabbed dropped a big dude in Kimbo, so clearly it works."

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Must....not......bash....Diaz.......

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

Not to be a contrarian, but most of those examples of people being dropped by shots in MMA is usually less due to the users technique, and more to due to the shitty positioning of the fighter getting punched. And if you look at all the guys getting punched in those examples, they are in terrible positioning to be taking any shot in the first place.

You see MMA fighters get dropped all the time by arm punches, doesn't mean the technique used to drop them was fundamental or even correct.

Recognizing and reacting to opponents being in bad positions is part of what makes you good fighter.

And when it comes down to it, in a fight... effectiveness > proper technique.


No opponent, just a demonstration of Chuck's "power hook"...

(pic of a different punch than above)

Hook = Chest (and torque)

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

So Chuck's power hook is basically a lead hook with his head flying forward, chin up and telegraphed and that's your definition of good, effective technique?

 

[fightingrabbit]

Recognizing and reacting to opponents being in bad positions is part of what makes you good fighter.

And when it comes down to it, in a fight... effectiveness > proper technique.

Not putting yourself in those positions in the first place is what makes a great fighter too. Also proper technique = effectiveness. Bad fundamentals used on a fighter inept at defending doesn't necessarily make for good technique. Not saying it won't work or be effective in that exact moment, it just shouldn't be perpetuated as a textbook move.

Just like awkward fighters have success against technical fighters at times, doesn't mean you go teach a class on it.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

It's like putting up a picture of Seth Petruzelli dropping Kimbo Slice with his jab and saying "Look, this jabbed dropped a big dude in Kimbo, so clearly it works."

Anyone else ever drop Robbie Lawler in his 13-year career?

That slinging hook by Rampage is was put an end to Chuck's 5-fight Championship reign (really became 'chinny' after that).

 

[Gregolian]

I wouldn't use Nick as a good example of proper technique. He has a style that really only works for him and his brother.

Look at what a guy who built his career on that punch looks like when he lands it:

Even though in both pics his arms are extended out slightly his body is still perpendicular like those Canelo pics.

So Chuck's power hook is basically a lead hook with his head flying forward, chin up and telegraphed and that's your definition of good, effective technique?

It's the same way Kid Yamamoto throws hooks and it's why Masato made mince meat of him with straights.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

Not putting yourself in those positions in the first place is what makes a great fighter too. Also proper technique = effectiveness. Bad fundamentals used on a fighter inept at defending doesn't necessarily make for good technique. Not saying it won't work or be effective in that exact moment, it just shouldn't be perpetuated as a textbook move.

Just like awkward fighters have success against technical fighters at times, doesn't mean you go teach a class on it.

Everyone is always expected to be in the exact proper position at all times... in reality, right.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Anyone else ever drop Robbie Lawler in his 13-year career?

That slinging hook by Rampage is was put an end to Chuck's 5-fight Championship reign (really became 'chinny' after that).

Ignoring that Rampage beat him once already....and Chuck got fed a steady diet of grapplers too......

 

[Perfect form]

It sounds to me that you are throwing the hook in the wrong position. Get in to the right position in relation to your opponent then the hook should come naturally. Position before punches.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

So Chuck's power hook is basically a lead hook with his head flying forward, chin up and telegraphed and that's your definition of good, effective technique?

Crib-notes (if you didnt read the rest):

Lack of power in your hook?
Focus on your CHEST transferring the power from your core to your 'hook'.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

That's a bad example if you want to get your point across.......Canelo example is good, but the rest....eh

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

I wouldn't use Nick as a good example of proper technique. He has a style that really only works for him and his brother.

Look at what a guy who built his career on that punch looks like when he lands it:

Even though in both pics his arms are extended out slightly his body is still perpendicular like those Canelo pics.

Yes. Like I said...
"The punch is more dependent on the chest and torque in the core, than the arm and shoulder, which may be the problem. Torque more, swing less.
...
This pic is great. Shows how Canelo's chest/shoulders are almost flat, perpendicular to his target... lots of torque (lots of power transferring from the chest to 'the hook')"

Perpendicular...

Perpendicular...

Perpendicular...

(the Rampage hook showed more of the power that can be generated by the muscle elasticity in the chest, specifically)

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I should note that Diaz's posture is kind of shit, since his back always kind of hunched over his lead leg. So that he might look like he look like Canelo and all, his hook is still shit. And in your example he is halfway to fall over his lead leg. He doesn't pull his weight back and keep his posture up to maximize his force of the punch like Canelo.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

Chest stretched... helps generate power...