International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war Megathread

Does Mandy Patinkin have a valid point?


  • Total voters
    41
Apparently a deal has been made and Hamas is gonna release all the hostages this week in the first part of the deal. It seems weird tho, there is no mention of Hamas disarment which was a supposed non negotiable for the israelis. I wonder who capitulated on that? I would be surprised if Hamas really commited to disarment.


Baby steps I guess, get the hostages done first and then go from there and see what happens. This does feel very, very different to previous announcements of ceasefires etc. I'm hesitant to be too happy about it, as anything can fucking happen, but fingers crossed this horrific couple of years is almost closing.
 
My source is better than your source begins...I don't care ..I didn't make these numbers up ..they were circulated online from multiple outlets...
Again, you're outright lying. Your source does not say 90% of aid was stolen by Hamas, that's not even in the title. And my source is at a report citing what Israeli intelligence concluded? What?
Nope they are still very much alive and present. Hence why the peace deal could be negotiated.
They haven't been an effective military force in quite some time. Unless you're telling me that Israel is grossly exaggerating how many Hamas members it's killed.
Was Israel not attacked first with a savage terrorist act? You're doing some weird things in these back and forths...if you're trying for a gold in mental gymnastics it's still a couple years away and I am not sure if it's an actual Olympic sport.
10/7 is not a hall pass to occupy Gaza and commit what looks a lot like genocide. Even the Israeli military wanted out of Bibi's plan to occupy.

The only gymnastics here are you're attempt to twist mass starvation of civilians into "defensive war." Let's also ignore that Israel launched a war with Iran during this time too.

Or since you're American: Our occupation of Afghanistan does not qualify as a defensive war, we finished retaliating for 9/11 when we ousted the Taliban.
You keep arguing some strawmans repeatedly while contradicting yourself back and forth. Is this some glitch?

It comes down to intent as I've explained to you multiple times. In one case there was clear cut genocidal intent where all the men from villages were lined up and executed on the spot. Show me where Israel did this during the war. You're literally trying to cling to any examples to make a workable analogy and failing horribly.


That's fine you picked two scholars and started throwing their names around trying to support your arguments on the basis of their credentials and that they used to disagree but now they agree. That's laughably poor logic. One of them according to you only says there's genocide because Israel has temporarily detained some minors. Your whole premise comes down to like one guy you read.
If lining up men to execute is genocidal intent, how is snipers killing any men (who don't even know they are targets) who wander into arbitrary killing zones not genocidal intent? We literally discussed an example of this, and you wrote it off as some outlier.
That's fine you picked two scholars and started throwing their names around trying to support your arguments on the basis of their credentials and that they used to disagree but now they agree. That's laughably poor logic. One of them according to you only says there's genocide because Israel has temporarily detained some minors. Your whole premise comes down to like one guy you read.
Again, more lying. Where did I say the bolded part?
How could you be so wrong while feigning some intellectual upper hand?

"Allegations of genocidal intent
The accusation of genocide is rooted in the forced transfer and re-education of Ukrainian children, which some experts argue falls under the fifth act of genocide as defined by Article II of the 1948 UN Genocide Convention: "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group". "

Only an ignorance dunce confuses doing basic research before opening their mouth for "intellectualism." Note that I've repeatedly mentioned Russia, not Putin. The ICC only prosecutes individuals, not states. The latter is the ICJ.

Child kidnapping is one of many crimes that have led scholars to conclude Russia is committing genocide, it is not the only reason.

Also, if you're quoting Karim Khan, does that mean you think his stance on Israeli war crimes and genocide are valid too? He's in charge of both investigating Putin and Bibi.
That's your claim there's no proof of that. If anything Israel gives advanced warnings of the sites it plans to bomb. There were some exceptions for some VIP targets.
How did the IDF and GHF manage to kill over a 1,000 Gazans, primarily civilians, near aid sites then? I don't recall these kind of massacres being routine when actual real aid organizations were in charge.
Uh yeah being a member of a terrorist organization which started a war by committing numerous war crimes is the textbook definition of an enemy combatant. Try again.
It's not. You cannot just execute alleged members of terror groups engage in non-combatant activity, particularly when the evidence is just "trust me bro." You didn't reply to the articel btw, are you ok with Israel cutting corners in designating terrorists?
That's fine but my point is some are accepted and others are treated as pearl clutching situations. Some war crimes are clearly acceptable and par for the course.
War crimes are never "clearly acceptable," no matter how routine they are in conflict. To argue otherwise is how you end up on the road to genocide by justifying eliminationist tactics and rhetoric and normalizing deviance.
Spoken like someone who doesn't live surrounded by enemies and has the good fortune to virtue signal.
What virtue am I signaling? That war crimes are bad? Again, just the blatant historical ignorance of claiming Israel needs to take off the gloves, even though it tried that for decades in Gaza and ended up with Hamas and worse organizations as a result.
Prosecute them? They are trying to free them as part of the peace deal. Israel has repeatedly done insane deals of releasing 1000 to 1.
If you are detaining people, charge them or release them. It was wrong for the US to do it, and it's wrong for any democracy to violate fundamental civil rights like that. Otherwise you're running a gulag system that corrodes your own country.
You can't prove genocide or even make a persuasive case to anyone who doesn't already agree with you. There's no blatant lying except by you. Repeatedly. I'm still waiting for you to post where I denied smaller scale random genocides you posted out of the blue. I guess you couldn't.
Wow, I'm shocked that a guy who routinely lies and doesn't' read his own sources when he claims Hamas steals 90% of aid, doesn't think Israel is doing something very akin to genocide.
 
I do wonder what the fuck the hoardes of Pro Pally lefty fucking losers are going to do with their time when this hopefully gets finalised?

Most of them are clearly unemployed "professional protesters".

What's the next bandwagon gonna be??
 
I do wonder what the fuck the hoardes of Pro Pally lefty fucking losers are going to do with their time when this hopefully gets finalised?

Most of them are clearly unemployed "professional protesters".

What's the next bandwagon gonna be??
Presumably keep advocating for a Palestinian state, assuming a ceasefire holds and they still feel like doing stuff?
 
Presumably keep advocating for a Palestinian state, assuming a ceasefire holds and they still feel like doing stuff?


Or they could start protesting Yemen or Sudan or any of the cleansing going on in Africa like Boko Haram openly admitting to genocide of Christians. All very relevant.........oh no. Wait. Not relevant to them. At all.

In terms of playing protester bingo I'm gonna say they either restart the tranny stuff or climate protests again. They are zealots who need a cause. I don't even think they'll pursue the Pally thing anymore, this has been about Israel winning more than anything else. If the conflict actually stops which I hope to fuck it does I think they'll move on. Pallies chanting Trumps name in Gaza today for a start will be very distasteful to them.
 



Yeah they're an awful bunch. Ask their neighbours, not the Jewish ones. Ask the western countries who took refugees. Very undesirable bunch. I just hope this deal involves sealing them in and allowing them to govern themselves and get on with their lives and neither they nor Israel ever acknowledge the other again. If the Arab nations are gonna rebuild Gaza this is entirely feasible. The west bank will be trickier of course. No clue what happens there but hopefully something positive.
 
Or they could start protesting Yemen or Sudan or any of the cleansing going on in Africa like Boko Haram openly admitting to genocide of Christians. All very relevant.........oh no. Wait. Not relevant to them. At all.

In terms of playing protester bingo I'm gonna say they either restart the tranny stuff or climate protests again. They are zealots who need a cause. I don't even think they'll pursue the Pally thing anymore, this has been about Israel winning more than anything else. If the conflict actually stops which I hope to fuck it does I think they'll move on. Pallies chanting Trumps name in Gaza today for a start will be very distasteful to them.
Why do we expect protestors to have to protest every cause? Bizarre standard that I'm sure isn't driven by partisanship.
 
Why do we expect protestors to have to protest every cause? Bizarre standard that I'm sure isn't driven by partisanship.


Because They protest every fucking thing on the planet apart from the topics that don't involve people they percieve as white or western. It's a noticeable trend in behaviour patterns. Even the climate loons only protest against the countries doing the MOST to try and sort shit out. They never protest against the biggest culprits by a fucking country mile.........the ones that aren't white and western

It's so blatant what the motive of these people is. Hint - its not really the topic itself. It's demonisation of "the west" and "whiteness". This is what "educated Marxists" preach. The downfall of the west.

If they actually gave a fuck about the climate they'd be burning Indian and Chinese flags on the streets of London or America.


If they actually gave a fuck about human rights and genocide, they'd be burning Iranian and Saudi and numerous African flags in London or America.

But they don't do they?

Because that's not actually their cause nor aim.
 
Because They protest every fucking thing on the planet apart from the topics that don't involve people they percieve as white or western. It's a noticeable trend in behaviour patterns. Even the climate loons only protest against the countries doing the MOST to try and sort shit out. They never protest against the biggest culprits by a fucking country mile.........the ones that aren't white and western

It's so blatant what the motive of these people is. Hint - its not really the topic itself. It's demonisation of "the west" and "whiteness". This is what "educated Marxists" preach. The downfall of the west.

If they actually gave a fuck about the climate they'd be burning Indian and Chinese flags on the streets of London or America.


If they actually gave a fuck about human rights and genocide, they'd be burning Iranian and Saudi and numerous African flags in London or America.

But they don't do they?

Because that's not actually their cause nor aim.
You're rambling all over the place here.

Point being, it's silly to expect people to protest about every tangential issue related to the one protest they decide to go to. Unless they're supporting a diametrically opposed issue at odds with the one they're marching for, there's no point doing litmus tests.

I'll also note that you were whining about unemployed protesters but somehow want people to devote even more time to protests so they can't work. Quit being silly.

PS Quite a few folks I've met who protest for Gaza also did the same for Yemen or Khashoggi. You talk like someone who hasn't been to a protest...ever?
 
Any of the anti semites apologize for insisting Israel didn’t care about hostages, their only goal was ethnic cleansing and colonizing Gaza?

Oh and you know who you were insisting the rest of the Arab world couldn’t be part of the solution.

Rhetorical of course.
 
Last edited:
Any of the anti semites apologize for insisting Israel didn’t care about hostages, their only goal was ethnic cleansing and colonizing Gaza?

Oh and you know who you were insisting the rest of the Arab world couldn’t be part of the solution.

Rhetorical of course.
Buddy, if you have specific posters you want to ask, there exists a tag function. No need to sell wolf tickets.
 
Again, you're outright lying. Your source does not say 90% of aid was stolen by Hamas, that's not even in the title. And my source is at a report citing what Israeli intelligence concluded? What?

You can quibble over the exact figures but it was in the high 80s% and Hamas controls Gaza. There were videos of Hamas brutally punishing those suspected of looting without their permission.

They haven't been an effective military force in quite some time. Unless you're telling me that Israel is grossly exaggerating how many Hamas members it's killed.
This is based on what? Your omnipotent abilities you suddenly discovered? So you trust some Israeli sources when they make some point for you but distrust Israeli sources that clash with your preconceived opinion? Make it make sense.
10/7 is not a hall pass to occupy Gaza and commit what looks a lot like genocide. Even the Israeli military wanted out of Bibi's plan to occupy.
It's a pretty damn good reason to wage war to destroy one's enemy. There's no occupation. They are in the middle of a war.
The only gymnastics here are you're attempt to twist mass starvation of civilians into "defensive war." Let's also ignore that Israel launched a war with Iran during this time too.
Your mental gymnastics is the way you constantly downplay the role of the aggressor in this conflict. You should be a PR spokeperson for Hamas.
Or since you're American: Our occupation of Afghanistan does not qualify as a defensive war, we finished retaliating for 9/11 when we ousted the Taliban.
When was that? Who controls Afghanistan now?
If lining up men to execute is genocidal intent, how is snipers killing any men (who don't even know they are targets) who wander into arbitrary killing zones not genocidal intent? We literally discussed an example of this, and you wrote it off as some outlier.

Coming near fences or stay away areas is a pretty good delineation of what's acceptable or not. Surely you could see how this is different from going house to house in multiple villages, gathering all the men at gun point, bringing them to a field, lining them up then shooting them all in the back/head in a mass execution. Nah you won't admit you were wrong here. I think you've acknowledged being mistaken once so far even when I clearly demonstrated multiple mistakes of fact with your preconceived opinion.
Again, more lying. Where did I say the bolded part?
Your whole point was that one of them switched his stance once Israelis detained the minors. It's not a big leap to conclude what I said.
Only an ignorance dunce confuses doing basic research before opening their mouth for "intellectualism." Note that I've repeatedly mentioned Russia, not Putin. The ICC only prosecutes individuals, not states. The latter is the ICJ.
You claimed that kidnapping of children was not a crime of genocide. I proved you wrong so you deflect and resort to name calling. It is very on brand for you.
Child kidnapping is one of many crimes that have led scholars to conclude Russia is committing genocide, it is not the only reason.
Amazing strawman. Where did I say it was the only one? I just said it was one of them and you proceeded to lecture me that it's not. Then when you got proven wrong you shifted goal posts.
Also, if you're quoting Karim Khan, does that mean you think his stance on Israeli war crimes and genocide are valid too? He's in charge of both investigating Putin and Bibi.
More strawmans and shifting of goal posts. I don't give a shit who they prosecute. My point was mass kidnapping of children is a form of genocide which you disputed. So now you agree it is a form a genocide?
How did the IDF and GHF manage to kill over a 1,000 Gazans, primarily civilians, near aid sites then? I don't recall these kind of massacres being routine when actual real aid organizations were in charge.
Because there are violent gangs, Hamas, looters, and sheer chaos. I am going to guess there was also a level of negligence if not outright criminal intent on at least some of them. That's still not proof of genocide.
It's not. You cannot just execute alleged members of terror groups engage in non-combatant activity, particularly when the evidence is just "trust me bro." You didn't reply to the articel btw, are you ok with Israel cutting corners in designating terrorists?
Israel has provided some proof for some of them but of course you need court level documentation/evidence before you concede that oh yea they could kill Al Jazeera Hamas commander.
War crimes are never "clearly acceptable," no matter how routine they are in conflict. To argue otherwise is how you end up on the road to genocide by justifying eliminationist tactics and rhetoric and normalizing deviance.
Sure thing. It's easy to walk on water when you never had to face war or prospect of annihilation. Everything you write is consistent with someone who says how something should be from things he has read. I personally think Ukrainians finally bombing civilian energy infrastructure is long overdue.
What virtue am I signaling? That war crimes are bad? Again, just the blatant historical ignorance of claiming Israel needs to take off the gloves, even though it tried that for decades in Gaza and ended up with Hamas and worse organizations as a result.

Like I said it's easy to say how things should be when you have no skin in the game and your life or continued existence of your people is not perpetually on the line. How did Israel take the gloves off with Gaza in the past? Israel literally left it in 2005. Taking gloves off is literally what's happening now. Israel has not done it up to this point.
If you are detaining people, charge them or release them. It was wrong for the US to do it, and it's wrong for any democracy to violate fundamental civil rights like that. Otherwise you're running a gulag system that corrodes your own country.
Maybe for a large and powerful country like US that could be the case. For a smaller less powerful country that is still waging war I disagree.
Wow, I'm shocked that a guy who routinely lies and doesn't' read his own sources when he claims Hamas steals 90% of aid, doesn't think Israel is doing something very akin to genocide.
I am shocked how little self awareness you have demonstrated here. There were multiple instances where I expected you to acknowledge some sort of error but nope. That goes both ways.
 
You can quibble over the exact figures but it was in the high 80s% and Hamas controls Gaza. There were videos of Hamas brutally punishing those suspected of looting without their permission.
Again, you keep lying and pulling numbers out of your ass. That source you disregarded? That was Israeli intelligence concluding there's no evidence that Hamas was stealing large amounts of aid from the UN.

Are you going to admit you lied and correct your statement?
This is based on what? Your omnipotent abilities you suddenly discovered? So you trust some Israeli sources when they make some point for you but distrust Israeli sources that clash with your preconceived opinion? Make it make sense.
It's based off of the IDF, which estimated at the start of the war that Hamas has 25,000 combatants. By now, they claim to have killed 20,000 combatants and wounded another 15,000 at least. On top of that, most of Hamas' leadership is long dead.

Most estimates for what's left of Hamas soldiers at this point are a couple thousand at best. And that's if we skirt around the fact that Israel has been clearly counting dead civilians at combatants.

I assess the a source's credibility and motives case by case. I trust an insurance salesman to tell me what time it is more than to tell me how awesome their insurance policies are.
It's a pretty damn good reason to wage war to destroy one's enemy. There's no occupation. They are in the middle of a war.
A war with...a couple thousand unorganized combatants at best now? Israel achieved its military objectives long ago, at this point it's the political objectives that have been the sticking point.
When was that? Who controls Afghanistan now?
I'd say pretty soon after the invasion. Eliminating a group like the Taliban is not a realistic objective with military force, something that Israel has not learned well.
Your mental gymnastics is the way you constantly downplay the role of the aggressor in this conflict. You should be a PR spokeperson for Hamas.
Yes, because saying mass starvation of civilian populations is bad for everyone makes one a terrorist.
Coming near fences or stay away areas is a pretty good delineation of what's acceptable or not. Surely you could see how this is different from going house to house in multiple villages, gathering all the men at gun point, bringing them to a field, lining them up then shooting them all in the back/head in a mass execution. Nah you won't admit you were wrong here. I think you've acknowledged being mistaken once so far even when I clearly demonstrated multiple mistakes of fact with your preconceived opinion.
These areas are not delineated or communicated to Gazans. It's pure sadism and murder.

If I tell my soldiers shoot everyone who crosses the street today, including civilians, and I don't tell the locals that, would you consider that genocidal?
Your whole point was that one of them switched his stance once Israelis detained the minors. It's not a big leap to conclude what I said.
No, I never said anything remotely like this, you are just bad at basic reading comprehension.
You claimed that kidnapping of children was not a crime of genocide. I proved you wrong so you deflect and resort to name calling. It is very on brand for you.
I also never said this, again you are awful at reading English.
More strawmans and shifting of goal posts. I don't give a shit who they prosecute. My point was mass kidnapping of children is a form of genocide which you disputed. So now you agree it is a form a genocide?
So if you find Khan's allegations against Putin credible, why do you not find his allegations against Bibi credible?
Because there are violent gangs, Hamas, looters, and sheer chaos. I am going to guess there was also a level of negligence if not outright criminal intent on at least some of them. That's still not proof of genocide.
And yet hundreds of civilians weren't getting massacred at aid stations when the UN and its partners were in charge. Are you telling me that the UN was better at distributing aid and saving lives than GHF?
Israel has provided some proof for some of them but of course you need court level documentation/evidence before you concede that oh yea they could kill Al Jazeera Hamas commander.
What proof was provided, for example, in the case of Anas Al Sharif and his colleagues?
Sure thing. It's easy to walk on water when you never had to face war or prospect of annihilation. Everything you write is consistent with someone who says how something should be from things he has read. I personally think Ukrainians finally bombing civilian energy infrastructure is long overdue.
My family grew up the victim of pograms in a country that grappled with genocide and terrorism. Have you or you immediate family ever seen what that does to a society first hand?
Sure thing. It's easy to walk on water when you never had to face war or prospect of annihilation. Everything you write is consistent with someone who says how something should be from things he has read. I personally think Ukrainians finally bombing civilian energy infrastructure is long overdue.
You make a lot of assumptions for someone so ignorant. Israel is not the only country to have struggled with terrorism and ethnic conflict.
Maybe for a large and powerful country like US that could be the case. For a smaller less powerful country that is still waging war I disagree.
Israel has no strategic depth to fall back on but they are the regional hegemon, both conventionally and in terms of WMDs. It's not even close. Israel hasn't faced existential threats in about half a century, the power balance has shifted tremendously.
I am shocked how little self awareness you have demonstrated here. There were multiple instances where I expected you to acknowledge some sort of error but nope. That goes both ways.
If you had a hint of self awareness you'd realize that most of the errors you accuse me of stem from you sucking ass at basic reading comprehension.
 
Back
Top