International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war Megathread

[SuperAlly]

 

[DEVILsSON]

Theoretically yes, but also you and probably wouldn't call a country wanting to commit genocide and only killing 1 or 10 people genocide.

It's a difficult subject but also why I'm generally not a fan of suffering/death toll Olympics. It's not productive and tends to muddy the water. Hence I'm fine with considering 10/7 genocide, even if Hamas didn't come close to eliminating a huge proportion of the Jewish population in Israel.

Ok, lets say for a crazy hypothetical example Russia decided to drop 10 nukes on all major cities in Israel and succeeded as far as having them hit their targets. However miraculously the nuclear components failed to detonate. By another sheer miracle no one got killed. Was this attempted genocide? I would argue yes.

Being incompetent or impotent is not a defense for genocide. Hamas would have happily killed millions if they had the means and opportunity.

You can also make a strong argument that a nation with all the tools and chances to commit genocide yet chooses not to is good evidence that their goal is not genocide.

 

[avenue94]

Ok, lets say for a crazy hypothetical example Russia decided to drop 10 nukes on all major cities in Israel and succeeded as far as having them hit their targets. However miraculously the nuclear components failed to detonate. By another sheer miracle no one got killed. Was this attempted genocide? I would argue yes.

Being incompetent or impotent is not a defense for genocide. Hamas would have happily killed millions if they had the means and opportunity.

You can also make a strong argument that a nation with all the tools and chances to commit genocide yet chooses not to is good evidence that their goal is not genocide.

If they had genocidal intent, you could describe it as an attempt at genocide. But there's no actual crime or punishment for that.

And I agree incompetence is not a defense, hence I've said repeatedly I have no issues with deeming 10/7 genocide or a genocidal act or whatever floats someone's boat.

You can also make a strong argument that a nation with all the tools and chances to commit genocide yet chooses not to is good evidence that their goal is not genocide.

Only if you were a mind reader. That'd be the equivalent of claiming a rich man running a ponzi scheme didn't actually intend to defraud investors because he's already rich.

Statements and conduct are far more illuminating, rather than trying to create the idea of some perfect genocide that all others should be measured against.

 

[Motivated BJ Penn]

Apparently a deal has been made and Hamas is gonna release all the hostages this week in the first part of the deal. It seems weird tho, there is no mention of Hamas disarment which was a supposed non negotiable for the israelis. I wonder who capitulated on that? I would be surprised if Hamas really commited to disarment.

 

[DEVILsSON]

If they had genocidal intent, you could describe it as an attempt at genocide. But there's no actual crime or punishment for that.

And I agree incompetence is not a defense, hence I've said repeatedly I have no issues with deeming 10/7 genocide or a genocidal act or whatever floats someone's boat.

Only if you were a mind reader. That'd be the equivalent of claiming a rich man running a ponzi scheme didn't actually intend to defraud investors because he's already rich.

Statements and conduct are far more illuminating, rather than trying to create the idea of some perfect genocide that all others should be measured against.

Surely there's a crime equivalent to attempted murder?

You can go away for decades for attempted murder in the US....

You can make claims for many things but if an entity has the means and many many opportunities to commit genocide but doesn't then you can perhaps make a case for other crimes or cases of negligence but I think that disproves genocide on its face.

We live in a world where many laypersons misuse words all the time. People throw around charges of racism even when something doesn't have anything to do with race or doesn't meet the textbook definition. Genocide is another one.

You(not you specifically) can massage the meaning of words until they lose all meaning or achieve the needed effect for your goals but if you're operating in good faith there's no case of genocide to be made.

You can make potential cases of ethnic cleansing, sporadic cases of crimes (even war crimes) but the true bar to genocide is so high that it's rarely met and you get huge swaths of the population murdered...and it's not 10 here or there in day to day fighting. People with genocidal intent don't give advance notices for areas to be bombed.

Forcibly keeping a population in place to make sure they die like Hamas has done is on the other hand a serious war crime that seemingly gets no news play.

 

[Anewt]

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/us-politics/us-politics-live/live-coverage/fd9e2de29f117c6760a356894be0bc58#/entry/28799771

Donald Trump said that Israel and Hamas have agreed to the first phase of his peace plan, following talks in Egypt on ending the war in Gaza.

“I am very proud to announce that Israel and Hamas have both signed off on the first Phase of our Peace Plan,” Trump said on his Truth Social network.

“This means that ALL of the Hostages will be released very soon, and Israel will withdraw their Troops to an agreed upon line as the first steps toward a Strong, Durable, and Everlasting Peace.”

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Thursday said Israel would bring home all the hostages held by Hamas in Gaza, after US President Donald Trump and mediators reported a deal to end the Gaza war.

“With God’s help we will bring them all home,” Netanyahu’s office said in a brief statement.


Following the announcement, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu confirmed his nation would bring home all the hostages held in Gaza.

“With God’s help we will bring them all home,” his office said in a brief statement.

Meanwhile, a Qatari official said the deal will “lead to ending the war, the release of Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners, and the entry of aid”.

“An agreement was reached on all the provisions and implementation mechanisms of the first phase of the Gaza ceasefire agreement,” Dr Majed Al Ansari, adviser to the Prime Minister, wrote on X.

“The details will be announced later.”

 

[Flower2dPeople]

 

[DEVILsSON]

Good news.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/hamas-israel-enter-third-day-100627822.html"
https://apnews.com/

Updated Wed, October 8, 2025 at 3:06 AM PDT
https://apnews.com/
Israel and Hamas agree to 'first phase' of plan to end fighting and release hostages, Trump says ERIC TUCKER and SAMY MAGDY

Smoke rises following an Israeli military strike in the northern Gaza Strip, seen from southern Israel, Wednesday, Oct. 8, 2025. (AP Photo/Emilio Morenatti)
WASHINGTON (AP) — Israel and Hamas have agreed to the “first phase” of his peace plan to pause fighting and release at least some hostages and prisoners, U.S. President Donald Trump said Wednesday in announcing the outlines of the biggest breakthrough in months in the two-year-old war.

“This means that ALL of the Hostages will be released very soon, and Israel will withdraw their Troops to an agreed upon line as the first steps toward a Strong, Durable, and Everlasting Peace,” Trump wrote on social media. “All Parties will be treated fairly!"

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on social media, “With God’s help we will bring them all home.” Hamas said separately that the deal would ensure the withdrawal of Israeli troops as well as allow for the entry of aid and exchang of hostages and prisoners.



Hamas plans to release all 20 living hostages this weekend, people familiar with the matter told The Associated Press, while the Israeli military will begin a withdrawal from the majority of Gaza.

It was not immediately clear whether the parties had made any progress on thornier questions about the future of the conflict, including whether Hamas will demilitarize, as Trump has demanded, and eventual governance of the war-torn territory. But the agreement nonetheless marked the most momentous development since a deal in January and February that involved the release of Israeli hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners.

The deal was solidified in Egypt after days of negotiations centered on a Trump-backed peace plan that he hopes will ultimately result in a permanent end to the war and bring about a sustainable peace in the region.

The war began with Hamas’ Oct. 7, 2023, attack on Israel that killed about 1,200 people, many of them civilians, and took 251 hostage. Israel’s retaliatory military campaign has left tens of thousands of Palestinians dead, devastated Gaza and upended global politics.



Trump expressed optimism earlier in the day by saying that he was considering a trip to the Middle East within a matter of days.

Yet another hint of a deal came later in that event when U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio passed Trump a note on White House stationery that read, “You need to approve a Truth Social post soon so you can announce deal first.” Truth Social is the president’s preferred social media platform.

The note prompted Trump to proclaim, “We’re very close to a deal in the Middle East.”"

 

[avenue94]

Surely there's a crime equivalent to attempted murder?

You can go away for decades for attempted murder in the US....

There's not really, unless you think ethnic cleansing is aa direct predecessor, which is a more complicated discussion.

You analogy isn't quite right, genocide is more equivalent to first degree murder. Either someone is guilty of first degree murder or second degree murder, etc, there's no attempted first degree murder.

You can make claims for many things but if an entity has the means and many many opportunities to commit genocide but doesn't then you can perhaps make a case for other crimes or cases of negligence but I think that disproves genocide on its face.

Except...
1. Occupying powers are 100% responsible for the safe distribution of aid into territory they occupy.
2. Israel was and is well aware it was not supplying enough food to feed Gaza.

Again, just baffling logic. It would also mean that no country committed genocide effectively unless they commit genocide against all their neighbors that they have the power to invade. Just bad logic.

You(not you specifically) can massage the meaning of words until they lose all meaning or achieve the needed effect for your goals but if you're operating in good faith there's no case of genocide to be made.

You can make potential cases of ethnic cleansing, sporadic cases of crimes (even war crimes) but the true bar to genocide is so high that it's rarely met and you get huge swaths of the population murdered...and it's not 10 here or there in day to day fighting. People with genocidal intent don't give advance notices for areas to be bombed.

Forcibly keeping a population in place to make sure they die like Hamas has done is on the other hand a serious war crime that seemingly gets no news play.

And yet I can rattle off a list of very respected experts int he field who think genocide has happened. And we're not looking for a 50/50 split here, if credible scholars think you're committing genocide, even if they're minority of scholars, you've really screwed up.

I stand by my repeated stance. If a country is claiming it's not committing genocide despite inducing mass starvation in hundreds of thousands of civilians, deliberating razing civilian infrastructure, sanctioning the routine slayings of civilians, doctors, aid workers, and press, and its leadership routinely spouts genocidal and eliminationist language, what you're doing is so close to genocide I can't fault someone for accusing you of it.

 

[DEVILsSON]

There's not really, unless you think ethnic cleansing is aa direct predecessor, which is a more complicated discussion.

You analogy isn't quite right, genocide is more equivalent to first degree murder. Either someone is guilty of first degree murder or second degree murder, etc, there's no attempted first degree murder.

There absolutely is "attempted first degree murder". In my state's penal code it is typically written as 664(attempted) / 187 PC (homicide).

Attempted Murder Law in California | Penal Code Section 664/187

Accused of attempted murder in Los Angeles under California Penal Code 664/187? Call our criminal defense lawyers to fight your charges. Free consultation.

goldsteinlawgroup.com

"“The attempted unlawful killing of another person, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.”"

I have arrested people on this charge. I don't know what the ultimate disposition was for each case. Sometimes it's plead down to aggravated assault (245(a)(1) PC with a weapon(gun/knife/bat/steel toed boot) or some other lesser charge.

Except...
1. Occupying powers are 100% responsible for the safe distribution of aid into territory they occupy.
2. Israel was and is well aware it was not supplying enough food to feed Gaza.

I know you have repeatedly claimed that there were insufficient calories per person delivered into the area but I've also seen claims elsewhere that something like 4500 calories per person per day were delivered. Hamas repeatedly stole or refused to distribute the aid(at least in some areas). The more I wait the more info comes out that it has been a propaganda campaign by Hamas and its allies. But it's ok we're not going to agree here.

Again, just baffling logic. It would also mean that no country committed genocide effectively unless they commit genocide against all their neighbors that they have the power to invade. Just bad logic.

No, we can make inferences if a country that has power and opportunity begins mass killings and is only stopped due to military action or intervention. We have seen clear examples of this in Rwanda, Sudan and elsewhere. Israel could have quite surgically killed 50% or more of the Gaza or Palestinian population if they set their minds to it. Yet despite some troubling lesser acts that has not happened. The proof is judged through actions not mere words.

And yet I can rattle off a list of very respected experts int he field who think genocide has happened. And we're not looking for a 50/50 split here, if credible scholars think you're committing genocide, even if they're minority of scholars, you've really screwed up.

There are minority of scholars who have been saying Israel has been committing genocide for years and decades. At some point it just becomes a political talking point for them rather than an actual fact. There are people who use their credentials as a crutch to justify their baseless opinions. The fact that the recent organization was exposed as a complete joke is even more proof that much of it is meaningless and the so called experts are largely Greta type ideological political partisans.

I stand by my repeated stance. If a country is claiming it's not committing genocide despite inducing mass starvation in hundreds of thousands of civilians, deliberating razing civilian infrastructure, sanctioning the routine slayings of civilians, doctors, aid workers, and press, and its leadership routinely spouts genocidal and eliminationist language, what you're doing is so close to genocide I can't fault someone for accusing you of it.

I have repeatedly acknowledged Israel doing some problematic things and some of their ruling coalition members saying some batshit crazy things but at the end of the day there's no proof of genocide. That's like claiming Russia committed genocide every time Medvedev threatens nuclear holocaust on the entire world via his X posts(Russians committed it via other actions but not through deranged tweets or statements to the press). It's certainly a cause for a pause and some concern but we must judge a country for its actions. Interruption of aid into an area for a month is not genocide. As others have pointed out to you you're operating on the opinion that every ounce of food is consumed and if more is not delivered then everyone begins to immediately starve and that's not necessarily the case. Did some people struggle and starve? Possibly. I don't know. But you speak very definitively on something that's not known. Some agency guessing at the numbers is not an indisputable fact.

 

[avenue94]

There absolutely is "attempted first degree murder". In my state's penal code it is typically written as 664(attempted) / 187 PC (homicide).

Attempted Murder Law in California | Penal Code Section 664/187

Accused of attempted murder in Los Angeles under California Penal Code 664/187? Call our criminal defense lawyers to fight your charges. Free consultation.

goldsteinlawgroup.com

"“The attempted unlawful killing of another person, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.”"

I have arrested people on this charge. I don't know what the ultimate disposition was for each case. Sometimes it's plead down to aggravated assault (245(a)(1) PC with a weapon(gun/knife/bat/steel toed boot) or some other lesser charge.

Fair point, bad analogy. But as I noted, there isn't really a law that defines attempted genocide.

I know you have repeatedly claimed that there were insufficient calories per person delivered into the area but I've also seen claims elsewhere that something like 4500 calories per person per day were delivered. Hamas repeatedly stole or refused to distribute the aid(at least in some areas). The more I wait the more info comes out that it has been a propaganda campaign by Hamas and its allies. But it's ok we're not going to agree here.

Do you have links to these claims? And Hamas surely steals food, but even if they didn't steal a pallet here wasn't enough aid to sustain the population.

Again, if you are an occupying power and bandits are stealing too much of your aid, the solution is deliver more aid to bring prices down and deal with the bandits later. That's how you build goodwill and split a population from a regime too.

No, we can make inferences if a country that has power and opportunity begins mass killings and is only stopped due to military action or intervention. We have seen clear examples of this in Rwanda, Sudan and elsewhere. Israel could have quite surgically killed 50% or more of the Gaza or Palestinian population if they set their minds to it. Yet despite some troubling lesser acts that has not happened. The proof is judged through actions not mere words.

The Bosnian genocide killed less than 10,000, while a couple thousand died in Shatila. Both are irrefutably genocide, yet they don't meet your bizarre standard of genocide. Are you going to tell me both instances don't count as genocide?

There are minority of scholars who have been saying Israel has been committing genocide for years and decades. At some point it just becomes a political talking point for them rather than an actual fact. There are people who use their credentials as a crutch to justify their baseless opinions. The fact that the recent organization was exposed as a complete joke is even more proof that much of it is meaningless and the so called experts are largely Greta type ideological political partisans.

Who are these scholars who have been accusing Israel of genocide for decades? I believe I've referenced Timothy Snyder and Omer Bartov, as well some other scholars. If you know the history between those two, you would notice how significant it is that the former endorsed the latter's criticism of Israeli excesses and accusation of genocidal intent very early in the conflict.

I have repeatedly acknowledged Israel doing some problematic things and some of their ruling coalition members saying some batshit crazy things but at the end of the day there's no proof of genocide. That's like claiming Russia committed genocide every time Medvedev threatens nuclear holocaust on the entire world via his X posts(Russians committed it via other actions but not through deranged tweets or statements to the press). It's certainly a cause for a pause and some concern but we must judge a country for its actions. Interruption of aid into an area for a month is not genocide. As others have pointed out to you you're operating on the opinion that every ounce of food is consumed and if more is not delivered then everyone begins to immediately starve and that's not necessarily the case. Did some people struggle and starve? Possibly. I don't know. But you speak very definitively on something that's not known. Some agency guessing at the numbers is not an indisputable fact.

Snyder has accused Russian of genocide in Ukraine, as have several other respected folks in the field.

As I've repeatedly noted, your attempt to hide behind the fog of war is in bad faith. We know Israeli figures documented insufficient aid getting into Gaza, and we have a chorus of aid groups and observers documenting mass starvation. Yet you want to handwave everything away because there is uncertainty over not whether mass starvation is occurring, but to what exact it is.

 

[DEVILsSON]

Fair point, bad analogy. But as I noted, there isn't really a law that defines attempted genocide.

Do you have links to these claims? And Hamas surely steals food, but even if they didn't steal a pallet here wasn't enough aid to sustain the population.

That's your claim. I don't care enough to dig for where I saw the other claim. It doesn't matter at this point.

Again, if you are an occupying power and bandits are stealing too much of your aid, the solution is deliver more aid to bring prices down and deal with the bandits later. That's how you build goodwill and split a population from a regime too.

How much more food should they have shipped? Hamas stole upwards of 90% of aid. It's ridiculous to expect your adversary that's fighting a defensive war to not only ship you aid but to even be forced to account for the 90% you steal, let rot, or just don't bother to distribute.

The Bosnian genocide killed less than 10,000, while a couple thousand died in Shatila. Both are irrefutably genocide, yet they don't meet your bizarre standard of genocide. Are you going to tell me both instances don't count as genocide?

This is a clear strawman. Nowhere did I mentioned these episodes and claimed they weren't genocides.

Who are these scholars who have been accusing Israel of genocide for decades? I believe I've referenced Timothy Snyder and Omer Bartov, as well some other scholars. If you know the history between those two, you would notice how significant it is that the former endorsed the latter's criticism of Israeli excesses and accusation of genocidal intent very early in the conflict.

I've seen it in passing. Again I am not digging for names but there are scholars who have contended there has been genocide for literal decades.

Snyder has accused Russian of genocide in Ukraine, as have several other respected folks in the field.

That's because they've literally did it with their actions like kidnapping of tens of thousands of children. That's not just Medvedev saying mean or deranged things on X like Gvir or Smotrich. Is IDF kidnapping Gazan children and forcibly raising them as Israelis?

As I've repeatedly noted, your attempt to hide behind the fog of war is in bad faith. We know Israeli figures documented insufficient aid getting into Gaza, and we have a chorus of aid groups and observers documenting mass starvation. Yet you want to handwave everything away because there is uncertainty over not whether mass starvation is occurring, but to what exact it is.

It's not bad faith. It's a statement of fact. Fog of war is very much real. How many bodies are there under every collapsed building? If I listen to certain posters here there's at least 1. You jump on any negative story that has an ounce of credibility then simply ignore the information later when it is revealed those entities are guessing (to put it charitably) or misrepresenting data/members.

Again I have acknowledged that there were quite a few problematic things happening which I didn't support but whereas I always lean on the side of "I don't know", "it's unclear", or "that may or may not be the case", you speak with concrete definiteness. Just because some entity guessed at the numbers doesn't make it fact. Just because Hamas controlled entity released some figures doesn't make them fact no matter how trustworthy or untrustworthy they were before the war.

 

[avenue94]

How much more food should they have shipped? Hamas stole upwards of 90% of aid. It's ridiculous to expect your adversary that's fighting a defensive war to not only ship you aid but to even be forced to account for the 90% you steal, let rot, or just don't bother to distribute.

What is your source that Hamas stole over 90% of aid into Gaza?

And Israel hasn't been fighting a defensive war, that's a preposterous statement.

This is a clear strawman. Nowhere did I mentioned these episodes and claimed they weren't genocides.

But both genocides could have been far worse, therefore they aren't genocides. That's your logic.

I've seen it in passing. Again I am not digging for names but there are scholars who have contended there has been genocide for literal decades.

So because there are a few scholars who may or may not have accused Israel of genocide going back decades -- you can't remember any names, conveniently -- that nullifies the arguments of Bartov or Synder or any other scholar who has concluded genocide in the past couple of years?

Amazing logic.

That's because they've literally did it with their actions like kidnapping of tens of thousands of children. That's not just Medvedev saying mean or deranged things on X like Gvir or Smotrich. Is IDF kidnapping Gazan children and forcibly raising them as Israelis?

Israel currently has over a 100 Palestinian minors in detention and several thousand more who are held on no charge (aka kidnapped). Kidnapping children is not the only reason Snyder argues Russia is committing genocide, which you would know if you bothered doing any research.

We also have extensive evidence of deliberate killing of civilians. Are you going to defend this again?

It's not bad faith. It's a statement of fact. Fog of war is very much real. How many bodies are there under every collapsed building? If I listen to certain posters here there's at least 1. You jump on any negative story that has an ounce of credibility then simply ignore the information later when it is revealed those entities are guessing (to put it charitably) or misrepresenting data/members.

What negative story have I jumped on that has been proven wrong?

Again I have acknowledged that there were quite a few problematic things happening which I didn't support but whereas I always lean on the side of "I don't know", "it's unclear", or "that may or may not be the case", you speak with concrete definiteness. Just because some entity guessed at the numbers doesn't make it fact. Just because Hamas controlled entity released some figures doesn't make them fact no matter how trustworthy or untrustworthy they were before the war.

Which, as we've been over multiple times, if Israel wanted neutral reporters to cover the conflict, it could just let in reporters from other countries. Yet it continues to hide from any sunlight and continues to assassinate reporters.

I've also not commented on death tolls because quibbling over exact numbers if one of the hallmarks of genocide denial and rarely productive. The fact is Israel has deliberately targeted civilians and sanctioned it by refusing to punish clear war crimes.

Remind me again, who did Israel punish for the Flour Massacre?

What about the slaughtering marked medical personal in Rafah and then deliberately covering up the killings. Where are the court martials and prison time for executing civilians?

 

[DEVILsSON]

What is your source that Hamas stole over 90% of aid into Gaza?

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/05/un-reports-88-percent-of-aid-trucks-slated-for-delivery-in-gaza-since-may-looted-along-routes/

90% of UN aid trucks in Gaza were looted by starving Palestinians, ‘armed actors’ before reaching destinations: officials

Nearly 90% of aid trucks collected by the United Nations along Gaza’s border didn’t make it to their intended destination since mid-May due to looting from starving Palestinians or &#82…

nypost.com

I am going off headlines. I am not rereading these articles.

And Israel hasn't been fighting a defensive war, that's a preposterous statement.

Who started this war with a terrorist attack? Who continues to wage a losing war? Who refuses to surrender and release hostages?

But both genocides could have been far worse, therefore they aren't genocides. That's your logic.

Again you picked this random strawman and I don't know why. Quote where I listed these events and said they weren't genocides.....in fact I said in my view a genocide can have 0 victims. You are literally contradicting yourself here over and over again...

So because there are a few scholars who may or may not have accused Israel of genocide going back decades -- you can't remember any names, conveniently -- that nullifies the arguments of Bartov or Synder or any other scholar who has concluded genocide in the past couple of years?

Is there a reason I should care about these specific people that you brought up? I am happy you read their material and agreed with it. I don't need to get into some pissing match about which scholar is legitimate and which is not. I also didn't say that the ones who claimed it has been one long genocide for decades somehow contradict the ones you mentioned. That's yet another strawman.

Amazing logic.

Israel currently has over a 100 Palestinian minors in detention and several thousand more who are held on no charge (aka kidnapped). Kidnapping children is not the only reason Snyder argues Russia is committing genocide, which you would know if you bothered doing any research.

Is the intent to kidnap them for no reason and prevent them from forging their cultural/ethnic identity? Apples and oranges. A 17 year old Hamas member falls into your definition of a 'minor in detention'. Half of Gaza was under 18. Even several thousand minors out of a population 2.2 million held in detention is a far cry from what Russia did.

We also have extensive evidence of deliberate killing of civilians. Are you going to defend this again?

I don't need to defend it because I have condemned it and alluded to it. That's not genocide though now is it?

What negative story have I jumped on that has been proven wrong?

You were all over the agency that determined there's genocide because they were all scholars and experts. Then it was revealed anyone could join and it required 30$ and many of them were simply activists.

Which, as we've been over multiple times, if Israel wanted neutral reporters to cover the conflict, it could just let in reporters from other countries. Yet it continues to hide from any sunlight and continues to assassinate reporters.

They will spin propaganda tales regardless. Some of the Al Jazeera 'journalists' were literal Hamas members.

I've also not commented on death tolls because quibbling over exact numbers if one of the hallmarks of genocide denial and rarely productive. The fact is Israel has deliberately targeted civilians and sanctioned it by refusing to punish clear war crimes.

When you're fighting a foe that doesn't abide by laws of warfare it is what it is. Ukraine now started committing war crimes as well but I don't see you complaining about it. You fight on your opponent's terms(within reason).

Remind me again, who did Israel punish for the Flour Massacre?

Remind me again who did Hamas punish for anything? I'll take anything. Just one example.

What about the slaughtering marked medical personal in Rafah and then deliberately covering up the killings. Where are the court martials and prison time?

Again, I am have openly condemned shit like that but again that's not genocide. That's singular fuck ups and then the usual cover ups. You almost expect this fucked up shit in a time of war. I don't condone it. I condemned it repeatedly. But again you're arguing some weird tangents because you can't prove genocide.

 

[avenue94]

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/05/un-reports-88-percent-of-aid-trucks-slated-for-delivery-in-gaza-since-may-looted-along-routes/

90% of UN aid trucks in Gaza were looted by starving Palestinians, ‘armed actors’ before reaching destinations: officials

Nearly 90% of aid trucks collected by the United Nations along Gaza’s border didn’t make it to their intended destination since mid-May due to looting from starving Palestinians or &#82…

nypost.com

I am going off headlines. I am not rereading these articles.

You mean the headline that says 90% of UN aid trucks in Gaza were looted by starving Palestinians, ‘armed actors’ before reaching destinations: officials.

Even Israeli intelligence didn't think Hamas steals most UN aid. Care to retract your ridiculous statement, or are you going to double down on your lying?

Who started this war with a terrorist attack? Who continues to wage a losing war? Who refuses to surrender and release hostages?

Israel destroyed Hamas militarily years ago. Did the IDF get loss while defending Israel and end up occupying Gaza's border with Egypt on accident or something?

The gaslighting to argue that a military occupying another state is waging defensive war...

Again you picked this random strawman and I don't know why. Quote where I listed these events and said they weren't genocides.....in fact I said in my view a genocide can have 0 victims. You are literally contradicting yourself here over and over again...

How does Bosnia qualify as genocide but Gaza doesn't? If you can't square that, your "standard" is pretty clear bullshit.

Is there a reason I should care about these specific people that you brought up? I am happy you read their material and agreed with it. I don't need to get into some pissing match about which scholar is legitimate and which is not. I also didn't say that the ones who claimed it has been one long genocide for decades somehow contradict the ones you mentioned. That's yet another strawman.

The same reason you listen to doctors when it comes to medical advice. Expertise and knowledge matter in scholarship the same way. Note I don't agree with these scholars on everything, but there arguments are reasonable and well supported.

Is the intent to kidnap them for no reason and prevent them from forging their cultural/ethnic identity? Apples and oranges. A 17 year old Hamas member falls into your definition of a 'minor in detention'. Half of Gaza was under 18. Even several thousand minors out of a population 2.2 million held in detention is a far cry from what Russia did.

Again, child kidnapping is not why scholars accused Russia of genocide. You're attempting to straw man and effect here to cover for your lack of knowledge.

I don't need to defend it because I have condemned it and alluded to it. That's not genocide though now is it?

A clear pattern of targeting civilians very much is the kind of killing that points to genocide. We know that these murders weren't an outlier too.

You were all over the agency that determined there's genocide because they were all scholars and experts. Then it was revealed anyone could join and it required 30$ and many of them were simply activists.

No, my position was this and once again you're lying. The resolution didn't inform my position on the war.

My stance on this boils down to many genocide scholars voted in favor of deeming Israel's conduct genocide. That is a factual statement. How many or who, I don't really care. There are much more compelling scholars who've made the same argument, which you like to ignore and focus only on the ones you can nitpick and discredit.

They will spin propaganda tales regardless. Some of the Al Jazeera 'journalists' were literal Hamas members.

Being a member of Hamas doesn't wave the rules of war targeting unarmed combatants. And that's if we assume Israel isn't frequently making shit up, which we know has been routine.

When you're fighting a foe that doesn't abide by laws of warfare it is what it is. Ukraine now started committing war crimes as well but I don't see you complaining about it. You fight on your opponent's terms(within reason).

I don't paste in every thread on the forum, who has time for that? I don't support war crimes, period.

Remind me again who did Hamas punish for anything? I'll take anything. Just one example.

I expect a democracy engaged in counter insurgency operations to operate to a higher level of conduct. By all means, prosecute any Hamas members who are captured and have committed war crimes.

Again, I am have openly condemned shit like that but again that's not genocide. That's singular fuck ups and then the usual cover ups. You almost expect this fucked up shit in a time of war. I don't condone it. I condemned it repeatedly. But again you're arguing some weird tangents because you can't prove genocide.

Except they are part of patterns of misconduct. They aren't singular. We've already discussed three in this exchange alone.

I'm not here to prove genocide. I've explained my stance, whether you want to accept evidence or not is up to you. I just call you out on the blatant lying.

 

[ShadowRun]

@Siver! You gonna give Trump credit ?

 

[ShadowRun]

I've said all along, if Trump gets this done he's getting a shit ton of credit from me.

We all know the psychotic extremists in the Israeli government were utterly unwilling to give up their slaughter.

Now hopefully those three pieces of human excrement finally fall out of Israel's arsehole - Smotrich, Ben Gvir, and (worst of all) Netanyahu.

reference for my post above

 

[Rholk]

Great to see that this horrible war is finally coming to an end.
This could/should have been done alot sooner, if only they released the hostages.
Thousands of lives could have been saved by the Palestinians.



Bit more of good news (if true):

 

[DEVILsSON]

You mean the headline that says 90% of UN aid trucks in Gaza were looted by starving Palestinians, ‘armed actors’ before reaching destinations: officials.

Even Israeli intelligence didn't think Hamas steals most UN aid. Care to retract your ridiculous statement, or are you going to double down on your lying?

My source is better than your source begins...I don't care ..I didn't make these numbers up ..they were circulated online from multiple outlets...

Israel destroyed Hamas militarily years ago. Did the IDF get loss while defending Israel and end up occupying Gaza's border with Egypt on accident or something?

Nope they are still very much alive and present. Hence why the peace deal could be negotiated.

The gaslighting to argue that a military occupying another state is waging defensive war...

Was Israel not attacked first with a savage terrorist act? You're doing some weird things in these back and forths...if you're trying for a gold in mental gymnastics it's still a couple years away and I am not sure if it's an actual Olympic sport.

How does Bosnia qualify as genocide but Gaza doesn't? If you can't square that, your "standard" is pretty clear bullshit.

You keep arguing some strawmans repeatedly while contradicting yourself back and forth. Is this some glitch?

It comes down to intent as I've explained to you multiple times. In one case there was clear cut genocidal intent where all the men from villages were lined up and executed on the spot. Show me where Israel did this during the war. You're literally trying to cling to any examples to make a workable analogy and failing horribly.

The same reason you listen to doctors when it comes to medical advice. Expertise and knowledge matter in scholarship the same way. Note I don't agree with these scholars on everything, but there arguments are reasonable and well supported.

That's fine you picked two scholars and started throwing their names around trying to support your arguments on the basis of their credentials and that they used to disagree but now they agree. That's laughably poor logic. One of them according to you only says there's genocide because Israel has temporarily detained some minors. Your whole premise comes down to like one guy you read.

Again, child kidnapping is not why scholars accused Russia of genocide. You're attempting to straw man and effect here to cover for your lack of knowledge.

How could you be so wrong while feigning some intellectual upper hand?

"Allegations of genocidal intent
The accusation of genocide is rooted in the forced transfer and re-education of Ukrainian children, which some experts argue falls under the fifth act of genocide as defined by Article II of the 1948 UN Genocide Convention: "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group". "

Child abductions reveal the genocidal intent behind Putin’s Ukraine invasion

Putin hoped his Ukraine invasion would secure his place among Russia’s greatest rulers. Instead, he looks destined to enter history as a genocidal dictator forever linked with the mass abduction of Ukrainian children, writes Peter Dickinson.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

A clear pattern of targeting civilians very much is the kind of killing that points to genocide. We know that these murders weren't an outlier too.

That's your claim there's no proof of that. If anything Israel gives advanced warnings of the sites it plans to bomb. There were some exceptions for some VIP targets.

No, my position was this and once again you're lying. The resolution didn't inform my position on the war.

Lying? Bro you have repeatedly strawmanned my position with oddball claims of things I never said in this back and forth(not even something from days, weeks or months ago). You have contradicted your own position back and forth not only with me but with Ally. You and others were waving that genocide vote around until it was exposed to be a complete joke. None of you could even prove it was statistically valid(but had all of them been scholars and not Greta type activitsts I did the math and it would have counted). Now you say it was never part of your position. Ok whatever you say.

Being a member of Hamas doesn't wave the rules of war targeting unarmed combatants. And that's if we assume Israel isn't frequently making shit up, which we know has been routine.

Uh yeah being a member of a terrorist organization which started a war by committing numerous war crimes is the textbook definition of an enemy combatant. Try again.

I don't paste in every thread on the forum, who has time for that? I don't support war crimes, period.

That's fine but my point is some are accepted and others are treated as pearl clutching situations. Some war crimes are clearly acceptable and par for the course.

I expect a democracy engaged in counter insurgency operations to operate to a higher level of conduct. By all means, prosecute any Hamas members who are captured and have committed war crimes.

Spoken like someone who doesn't live surrounded by enemies and has the good fortune to virtue signal.

Prosecute them? They are trying to free them as part of the peace deal. Israel has repeatedly done insane deals of releasing 1000 to 1.

Except they are part of patterns of misconduct. They aren't singular. We've already discussed three in this exchange alone.

Three? You have to be joking. Hell make it 100. Congratulations you proved some singular cases of misconduct or even war crimes which I have acknowledged and condemned for months if not years. So I guess in order to prove genocide you just have to prove that individual members of IDF committed burglary at some point. Close enough. Mission accomplished. Brilliant logic.

I'm not here to prove genocide. I've explained my stance, whether you want to accept evidence or not is up to you. I just call you out on the blatant lying.

You can't prove genocide or even make a persuasive case to anyone who doesn't already agree with you. There's no blatant lying except by you. Repeatedly. I'm still waiting for you to post where I denied smaller scale random genocides you posted out of the blue. I guess you couldn't.

 

[ShadowRun]