Foot or Shin?

[Kyryllo]

next time you critique people's comments, please have cross trained in at least one more martial art by then, k?

I don't know how crosstraining in other arts could enlarge knowledge in anatomy and physiology, but I'm quite sure it didn't help you a lot. I for my part trained: Boxing, Sambo, Combat Sambo, russian hand-to-hand combat, Luta Livre, TKD, trained and spared with a lot of people from different arts, and faught under large variety of rules.
My records are:
3-0 in MMA
34-7 in Sambo/combat Sambo
14-1-1 in Boxing (9 KO)
13-2 in kickboxing (8 KO)
10-2 in kickboxing (5 KO under MT rules)
261-48 in Fullcontact TKD (45 KO)



Have a good one.

 

[Matt Thornton]

Haha. Wow. This is one heated debate. BlackBeltNow, sorry about the TMA "snap of the knee" thing. You're right, it was generalizing. Just, when I did traditional martial arts (it was really more American McDojo martial arts; not Korean TKD or Japanese Karate), with point sparring and everything, roundhouses were powered by a snap of the knee.

 

[BlackBeltNow]

Oh My Fucking GOD!!! Look up at least in a book or on the net what scar tissue is! "Physiological fact!" You spread so much shit it's not even possible, everything you say is coming straight out of your ass.

For you to know: the scar tissue can be only built in the soft tissue such as skin, muscles and connective tissue, not in the bones! Through repetitive impacts the bone tissue is forced to natural functional adoptation in the substantiae spongiosa and compacta, especialy in the s. spongiosa, this increases the density of the bone. If the repetitive impacts go away, the bone adapts to the new less intence forces and losses it's density.

It's not bad if you don't know all this stuff. I know this beacuase I study it, you probably don't, it's OK but quit posting about something you have not a flying fart of an Idea about, please.

scar tissue is when you destroy a large amt of tissue, and the body regenerates. the reason scar tissue is not as strong is b/c tissue derived from embryonic stem cells are the strongest. when you are an adult, you don't have any embryonic stem cells to regenerate missing tissues. you have other types of stem cells in the body, but they are good enough to put fillers where damage was, as opposed to regenerating it. this "filler" is scar tissue. it can be bone, skin, muscle, anything.

yes, it CAN be bone. when a bone breaks, say a shin, the doctor will use nails or braces so the two shin fragments are align. then the bone heals, and once the bone heals, it will be whole again, but only as a imitation of the original.

 

[Matt Thornton]

I don't know how crosstraining in other arts could enlarge knowledge in anatomy and physiology, but I'm quite sure it didn't help you a lot. I for my part trained: Boxing, Sambo, Combat Sambo, russian hand-to-hand combat, Luta Livre, TKD, trained and spared with a lot of people from different arts, and faught under large variety of rules.
My records are:
3-0 in MMA
34-7 in Sambo/combat Sambo
14-1-1 in Boxing (9 KO)
13-2 in kickboxing (8 KO)
10-2 in kickboxing (5 KO under MT rules)
261-48 in Fullcontact TKD (45 KO)



Have a good one.

Yeah, BBN, not trying to flame you, but this guy does know what he is talking about. He posted some videos of himself a while back. His TKD is pretty sick.

 

[Gregster]

that "tissue repair" is SCAR tissue. scars are always weaker than the original. that is physiological fact.

yes, it CAN be bone. when a bone breaks, say a shin, the doctor will use nails or braces so the two shin fragments are align. then the bone heals, and once the bone heals, it will be whole again, but only as a imitation of the original.

I love it when you try to sound intelligent, BBN. It's always a rich source of unintended hilarity when you do. And though you continually reveal yourself to be utterly clueless, I must say you deserve high marks for creativity; it must take a lot of that to keep making shit up.

Bone continually breaks down and resorbs, calcifying and hardening on the outside, regenerating cartilege on the epiphiseal plates. When a bone breaks, provided it is set and heals right (sometimes involving the use of plates and screws, not *nails* you simpleton) it wil resorb and rebuild as normal. It will not be an "imitation" of itself.

Mechanical stimulation of the bone by muscle, as which occurs from routine exercise, increases the rate and quality of resorbption and hardens the bone further.

As for the debate over whether or not striking with the instep is a good idea: like Chthon, I am thoroughly puzzled as to why it's still going on. Are millions of martial artists worldwide today, and millions more who've trained in the past, generation after generation, suddenly wrong because Muay Thai kickers use their shin? If the shin is the only way to go, and the instep so utterly lousy, then why do we not see more arts employing shin strikes?

As I said before: it's just two ways to do the same job. The mechanics of the strikes, while similar in many ways, are dissimilar in others. In fact, I would venture to speculate that guys who've only trained Muay Thai think the instep is bad because they connected with their foot kicking Muay Thai-style. But I could of course be mistaken.

 

[Kyryllo]

scar tissue is when you destroy a large amt of tissue, and the body regenerates. the reason scar tissue is not as strong is b/c tissue derived from embryonic stem cells are the strongest. when you are an adult, you don't have any embryonic stem cells to regenerate missing tissues. you have other types of stem cells in the body, but they are good enough to put fillers where damage was, as opposed to regenerating it. this "filler" is scar tissue. it can be bone, skin, muscle, anything.

yes, it CAN be bone. when a bone breaks, say a shin, the doctor will use nails or braces so the two shin fragments are align. then the bone heals, and once the bone heals, it will be whole again, but only as a imitation of the original.

OH NO NO NO NOOOO NOOOOOOOOOO NO, GOD DAMN NO! HAHAHA! I'd like to have a few gramms of the shit you smoke to get those ideas from. Realy, are you running a competition how manages to post as much nonsense as possible till chrstmas, so you can win the tricycle you wanted so bad as a 5 years old. I won't start whith how wrong you are about the function of the embryonic stem cells, you also have no idea how the healing wound processes. Shortly: wound healing has NOTHING to do whith any stem cells, all stem are gone when the embryo becomes the fetus. The process is called epithelization, the wound closes, after several other processes (NO! NO EMBRYONIC CELLS OR THE TOOTH FAIRY ARE INVOLVED), with connective tissue (epithel). The scar is built! The scar tissue has a lower density in the begining than the surrounding tissue, but after a period of time it regains at least the same density if everything is alright.

The healing of the bone is a bit different, the gap after afew processes (callus formation) is closed with cartilage (chondrocytes), then the chondrocytes become osteocytes, new bone tissue is built. This part of the bone is much harder than the surrounding bone tissue.



I'm already anxious what stupidity you'll bring the next time.

 

[TwIsTeD&BrOkEn]

not that Im trying to fuel this stupid little war yall have goin on here, but every doc Ive ever talked to has told me that if a bone is broken or damaged, it will be weaker than it was before.....


so youre saying those docs are full of shit?....

 

[BlackBeltNow]

OH NO NO NO NOOOO NOOOOOOOOOO NO, GOD DAMN NO! HAHAHA! I'd like to have a few gramms of the shit you smoke to get those ideas from. Realy, are you running a competition how manages to post as much nonsense as possible till chrstmas, so you can win the tricycle you wanted so bad as a 5 years old. I won't start whith how wrong you are about the function of the embryonic stem cells, you also have no idea how the healing wound processes. Shortly: wound healing has NOTHING to do whith any stem cells, all stem are gone when the embryo becomes the fetus. The process is called epithelization, the wound closes, after several other processes (NO! NO EMBRYONIC CELLS OR THE TOOTH FAIRY ARE INVOLVED), with connective tissue (epithel). The scar is built! The scar tissue has a lower density in the begining than the surrounding tissue, but after a period of time it regains at least the same density if everything is alright.

The healing of the bone is a bit different, the gap after afew processes (callus formation) is closed with cartilage (chondrocytes), then the chondrocytes become osteocytes, new bone tissue is built. This part of the bone is much harder than the surrounding bone tissue.



I'm already anxious what stupidity you'll bring the next time.

you talk as if i'm the only person who discourages kicking a heavy target, such as a heavy bag, with the instep. look around you. two thigns you learn in MT for former-TMAers is 1) dont' chamber kick 2) don't kick w/ the foot

i don't really want to debate the technical stuff. fact of the matter is, kicking w/ the foot on heavy targets is like punching something heavy w/o gloves. you might get away, but you're at risk. No one would say punching gloveless guarantees 100% chance it'll be broken, nor am I'm guaranteeing kicking w/ the foot 100% guarnatees a broken foot, but the % is high enough people are taught not to do it.

why won't u scroll up, and tell everyone who said kicking w/ foot will injure it that they are wrong. i'm not the only guy you know. you're only flaming me b/c I posted the right answer before everyone else did.

 

[BlackBeltNow]

When a bone breaks, provided it is set and heals right (sometimes involving the use of plates and screws, not *nails* you simpleton)

wow.

Mechanical stimulation of the bone by muscle, as which occurs from routine exercise, increases the rate and quality of resorbption and hardens the bone further.

you're twisting my words. First off, I did not say you canno't make bones stronger by conditoining. I said the primary reason kickboxers "condition shins" is actually desensitizing the nerves, not to make the shin stronger. altho structural conditoining does occur, that's not the point of it.

in addition, when you "condition" your shins, you're not making them structurally stronger (altho it does but only slightly). you're just desensitizing the nerves.

Second, this i'm not super sure so don't flame me on this if I'm wrong b/c I will just skip the flame, but most of the "stress" is adaptable by bone is mainly from chronic stress, and not by abusing it, as in growing heavier or just running a lot.

 

[Gregster]

not that Im trying to fuel this stupid little war yall have goin on here, but every doc Ive ever talked to has told me that if a bone is broken or damaged, it will be weaker than it was before.....


so youre saying those docs are full of shit?....

Permanently weaker, or temporarily? A bone will be at a higher risk of breakage for a period after healing, but again bone continually resorbs and reforms itself.

I'm not an M.D., bu my undergrad specialization is in Exercise Science, and I've had classes on anatomy, physiology, and managing injuries. I recall being told that it will eventually resorb back to full strength. I can accept the idea that my knowledge on the subject may be outdated, but I've dug around a little and I can't find anything that contradicts what I was taught.

 

[TwIsTeD&BrOkEn]

ya know, I really dont know if its permanently or temporarily....I would assume with proper alignment, it may go back to normal, but Im not quite sure about that.....nevertheless, no doctor has ever said that it gets stronger!....if that were true, why doesnt everyone just break every bone in thier own bodies, and then re-break them, and re-break them untill they have skeletons made of Iron?

 

[Gregster]

ya know, I really dont know if its permanently or temporarily....I would assume with proper alignment, it may go back to normal, but Im not quite sure about that.....nevertheless, no doctor has ever said that it gets stronger!...if that were true, why doesnt everyone just break every bone in thier own bodies, and then re-break them, and re-break them untill they have skeletons made of Iron?

Well T&B, I'm certainly not suggesting that breaking bones is the path the greater bone density and strength, to be sure. Just that they can return to normal and benefit from increased conditioning brought on by different types of training; mild strength training, for instance, has been proven to increase bone density and reduce instances of spontaneous fractures in the elderly (whereas it was previously believed that old people would be more apt to fall and break a hip, it's now known that they more often break a hip due to weakness, *then* fall).

As for your hyperbolic bone-strengthening regimen: well, I guess you'd have to be pretty hardcore to submit to constant voluntary bone breakage to try and get stronger bones. Plus, considering that a break entails weeks or months of immobilization and a reduction or complete cessation of physical activity, it'd be a poor way to go about it. Especially when it's already well-known that physical activity (as opposed to a lack of it) speeds up the resobtion process and leads to improved bone density.

 

[TwIsTeD&BrOkEn]

I dont disagree with you there.....Id rather strengthen my body through diet and exersize, rather than causing damage to myself.

regardless, I think this thread is pretty much dead, and there are no points being made...its just a big arguement, and say what you want about BBN, he isnt really doing half as much "flaming" as the guys arguing with him....I think yall should just agree to disagree, and believe what you believe....it doesnt matter to me, and Im sure it doesnt matter to any of you....but I will say that I know what I know, and my mind wont be changed untill its been proven otherwise.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

ya know, I really dont know if its permanently or temporarily....I would assume with proper alignment, it may go back to normal, but Im not quite sure about that.....nevertheless, no doctor has ever said that it gets stronger!....if that were true, why doesnt everyone just break every bone in thier own bodies, and then re-break them, and re-break them untill they have skeletons made of Iron?

Actually, as far as I know the bones do regrow stronger than they used to be.

Obviously, this will take while and you have to let it heal properly. But years after the fact, in a properly healed bone, the part that was broken and grew together again will actually be the hardest part of the bone. I've heard this from many people, but it's not my profession, so I can't claim it with authority.

None of this has anything to do with conditioning as breaking a bone is the last thing a fighter wants to do with his body. But a properly healed bone (something hard for fighters to wait for) is not weaker at all than a regular bone.

But this thread is hilarious, as are any and all threads where BBN spreads scientific knowledge on traditional martial arts. One of them got archived as the example of the most brutal owning on Sherdog outside of OT and War Room, and this one is on its way to a similar fate.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

Here's one source:

New tissue bonds the fractured bone ends with a soft callus, a mass of connective tissue and exudate (matter escaped through blood vessel walls). Remodeling begins. Within a few months, a hard callus replaces the soft one. Remodeling restores the inner canal.

Once restoration is complete, which may take years, the healed area is brand new, without a scar. Usually thicker, the new bone may even be stronger than the old, Yahiro says, adding that if the bone should break again, it's unlikely to be at the same place.

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/396_bone.html

 

[Kyryllo]

not that Im trying to fuel this stupid little war yall have goin on here, but every doc Ive ever talked to has told me that if a bone is broken or damaged, it will be weaker than it was before.....


so youre saying those docs are full of shit?....

I have to say at least 70% of doctors I ever met were full of shit. The problem is that if a doctor is finished studying 10 years ago it does mean that his knowledge is only 50% worth right now. Unfortunatly the most don't accept the new stuff since the doctors consider them as gods. It became a common fact that the bones become stronger after a fracture only like 10-15 years ago. Before there was an assumption that the bone is weaker after a break since there weren't any studies about that matter till the late 80's early 90's. The medicine is still dominated by assumptions, but a few years ago it was much, much worse. For example if you got a menisc tear in the 60-70's you get a nerve transection so you don't feel the pain. In the 80's the assumption was that you don't need a menisc in your knee so they just cut it out, 10 years later all the ppl without a menisc got an early arthrosis. Medicine nowerdays is 60% knowledge 40% assumptions.

 

[TwIsTeD&BrOkEn]

fair enough...I dont hold much stock in what most GPs tell me anyways.....BUT, I do know that from personal experience, my fractured toes are always painful...and probably will be in pain for the rest of my life....Im sure it will only get worse....and I cant curl them like I used to.....


strength aside, they sure as hell aint what they used to be!

 

[Kyryllo]

you talk as if i'm the only person who discourages kicking a heavy target, such as a heavy bag, with the instep. look around you. two thigns you learn in MT for former-TMAers is 1) dont' chamber kick 2) don't kick w/ the foot

i don't really want to debate the technical stuff. fact of the matter is, kicking w/ the foot on heavy targets is like punching something heavy w/o gloves. you might get away, but you're at risk. No one would say punching gloveless guarantees 100% chance it'll be broken, nor am I'm guaranteeing kicking w/ the foot 100% guarnatees a broken foot, but the % is high enough people are taught not to do it.

why won't u scroll up, and tell everyone who said kicking w/ foot will injure it that they are wrong. i'm not the only guy you know. you're only flaming me b/c I posted the right answer before everyone else did.

I'm not going agaist you because you don't share my oppinion, but because of your sloppiness and stupidity when you are trying to deffend your point. You just come up with some made up shit and try to sound smart. As I gave you some sientifically proven arguements you came up with some invented crap, as I proved you wrong you came up with even more invented crap. And it's not like you just was mistaken in some fact, you just had no idea what you were talking about.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

fair enough...I dont hold much stock in what most GPs tell me anyways.....BUT, I do know that from personal experience, my fractured toes are always painful...and probably will be in pain for the rest of my life....Im sure it will only get worse....and I cant curl them like I used to.....


strength aside, they sure as hell aint what they used to be!

There are perks that go with broken bones. I can still feel strong changes in weather and athmospheric pressure in my bones, believe it or not. The part that was broken starts tingling and hurting slightly -- like these old people with arthritis or something.

I can't say that it feels weaker, though.

 

[Kyryllo]

And here is a pic of CC's bodyshot against Magomedov that lead to a KO. I think now it's clear that you can KO someone with the instep.