Economy Donald trump to impose Tariffs feb.1st.

[gatchaman]

LOL would you like a match for that strawman? Do you even understand that I'm partially arguing that the Canadian government fucked up by not taking strong action to help business diversify out trade relationships*? What does a single government decision about a single project have to do with that?

Get back to me when there's something between your ears besides air.


*Disclaimer: in fairness to the current government, I haven't researched the issue to know whether the government tried to facilitate such a move and Canadian businesses rejected them out of complacency, or if it was the Canadian government who was complacent (or received promises from the incoming Biden administration). Regardless, it was a failure to realize that what happened then could happen again at any time, and when the Canadian economy has already been weakened by so many other factors of late. People were complaining of structural weakness in the economy 15 years ago so it hasn't got much to do with what party is in power per se; rather I'd say there's has been a general sense across the nation of over-confidence the 800 pound gorilla next to is never going to just roll over and crush us because reasons.

So again, I never said there weren't other occasions in the past that should have prompted a re-think of our relationships; only that the arbitrary nature of Trump's tariffs the first time around should have been an especially sharp smack on the collective face of Canadians. Judging by the reaction this time around though, I'd say a lot of people have woken up now.

Good talk.

It wasn't a strawman argument. It wasn't an argument. It was a question: When the Federal Liberals blocked the Energy East pipeline with increased regulation, was this a good move?

And you didn't answer it.

I'll ask the question another way: Can you see Albertans getting pissed off when a "Team Canada" approach applies to putting an export tax on Alberta oil (like Alberta doesn't already pay the rest of Canada through equalization payments),

Canada should hit Trump where it hurts the most — oil and gas

Such an export tax would certainly face political challenges; Alberta Premier Danielle Smith and the oil and gas companies themselves will blow a gasket. But a strong case can be made that layering an export tax on oil and gas is a fair approach within the overall Canadian response.

www.nationalobserver.com

but a Team Canada approach does not apply to building an Energy East pipeline (so that Ontario doesn't have to import Albertan oil from Michigan, so that Canada doesn't have to export 90% of its oil to the USA, you know an actual solution to the problem of Trump holding Canada over a barrel over trade)?

Quebec continues to reject Energy East pipeline from Alberta despite tariff threat

That was fast. The show of solidarity between Canada’s premiers to reduce barriers to interprovincial trade in the face US president Donald Trump’s tariff threats lasted less than eight hours.

www.westernstandard.news

 

[Andy Capp]

It wasn't a strawman argument. It wasn't an argument. It was a question: When the Federal Liberals blocked the Energy East pipeline with increased regulation, was this a good move?

And you didn't answer it.

I'll ask the question another way: Can you see Albertans getting pissed off when a "Team Canada" approach applies to putting an export tax on Alberta oil (like Alberta doesn't already pay the rest of Canada through equalization payments),

Canada should hit Trump where it hurts the most — oil and gas

Such an export tax would certainly face political challenges; Alberta Premier Danielle Smith and the oil and gas companies themselves will blow a gasket. But a strong case can be made that layering an export tax on oil and gas is a fair approach within the overall Canadian response.

www.nationalobserver.com

but a Team Canada approach does not apply to building an Energy East pipeline (so that Ontario doesn't have to import Albertan oil from Michigan, so that Canada doesn't have to export 90% of its oil to the USA, you know an actual solution to the problem of Trump holding Canada over a barrel over trade)?

Quebec continues to reject Energy East pipeline from Alberta despite tariff threat

That was fast. The show of solidarity between Canada’s premiers to reduce barriers to interprovincial trade in the face US president Donald Trump’s tariff threats lasted less than eight hours.

www.westernstandard.news

So, you're asking me about something that has nothing to do with my post and nothing to do with the thread topic but it's not a strawman? Fair enough, it's a deflection. Gatchaman.

 

[gatchaman]

So, you're asking me about something that has nothing to do with my post and nothing to do with the thread topic but it's not a strawman? Fair enough, it's a deflection. Gatchaman.

I am quoting you: "I said at the time that the one bright side might be if we took it as sign we need to diversify our trade relationships."

My questions are about specific steps that would diversify Canada's trade relationships. I'll ask them again.

When the Federal Liberals blocked the Energy East pipeline with increased regulation, was this a good move?

Can you see Albertans getting pissed off when a "Team Canada" approach applies to putting an export tax on Alberta oil (like Alberta doesn't already pay the rest of Canada through equalization payments), but a Team Canada approach does not apply to building an Energy East pipeline (so that Ontario doesn't have to import Albertan oil from Michigan, so that Canada doesn't have to export 90% of its oil to the USA, you know an actual solution to the problem of Trump holding Canada over a barrel over trade)?

Will you answer the questions?

 

[Rational Poster]

I am quoting you: "I said at the time that the one bright side might be if we took it as sign we need to diversify our trade relationships."

My questions are about specific steps that would diversify Canada's trade relationships. I'll ask them again.

When the Federal Liberals blocked the Energy East pipeline with increased regulation, was this a good move?

Can you see Albertans getting pissed off when a "Team Canada" approach applies to putting an export tax on Alberta oil (like Alberta doesn't already pay the rest of Canada through equalization payments), but a Team Canada approach does not apply to building an Energy East pipeline (so that Ontario doesn't have to import Albertan oil from Michigan, so that Canada doesn't have to export 90% of its oil to the USA, you know an actual solution to the problem of Trump holding Canada over a barrel over trade)?

Will you answer the questions?

This seems kind of silly on its face, why wouldn't Canada export their oil production? Their production far outpaces your small populations' needs. It's almost all excess. Not exporting it would be a waste of effort in extracting it in the first place. If you're not exporting to the US, the most convenient location with direct infrastructure for the trade already in place, then who? You going to start putting it on boats? Canada going to build a navy to protect the trade?

Canada's oil exports are all the leverage you guys have with the states. You don't need all of it, and we need all of it and then some. The main reason Trump backed down is it became obvious how dependent the US is on Canadian oil and the tariffs would suck for us pretty bad.

When you say Canada doesn't have to export 90% of its oil to the states, you're basically saying Canada doesn't need an oil extraction industry and the economy it supports. Which I don't think is true at all. Both countries benefit tremendously from the trade.

 

[ChosenOne]

i wonder if people here realize there a number of Canadian and US cities, such as Beebe Plain, Vermont, and Stanstead, Quebec, have the border run right thru town and even sometimes right thru homes like the picture below? cite

These town have no official border and typically only have a self reporting border office on both sides, where people crossing the border are supposed to check in.

What that means, is you can do everything you want at the official border crossing elsewhere that are policed and manned but anyone intent to taking a car, van or truck load of anything into the US or Canada, can simply go to these towns, cross the city to the other side and they are in. Short of an official just happening to see them and watching to see if they go self report they will never be caught.

 

[Fergelmince]

Fun fact: both Trump and Biden got Mexico to send 10k troops to the border. Neat.Didnt Canada start to beef up border security back in December?

Yes, right after Trump threatened tariffs the month before.

 

[gatchaman]

This seems kind of silly on its face, why wouldn't Canada export their oil production? Their production far outpaces your small populations' needs. It's almost all excess. Not exporting it would be a waste of effort in extracting it in the first place. If you're not exporting to the US, the most convenient location with direct infrastructure for the trade already in place, then who? You going to start putting it on boats? Canada going to build a navy to protect the trade?

Canada's oil exports are all the leverage you guys have with the states. You don't need all of it, and we need all of it and then some. The main reason Trump backed down is it became obvious how dependent the US is on Canadian oil and the tariffs would suck for us pretty bad.

When you say Canada doesn't have to export 90% of its oil to the states, you're basically saying Canada doesn't need an oil extraction industry and the economy it supports. Which I don't think is true at all. Both countries benefit tremendously from the trade.

The Germans literally came to Canada cap in hand asking to increase trade in natural gas.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scholz-vassy-kapelos-lng-russia-gas-1.6559814

Instead, Canada is subsidizing a German electric battery plant in Ontario.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/vw-volkswagen-st-thomas-battery-plant-german-autos-car-industry-electric-vehicles-1.6817262

Instead, Alberta will continue to sell oil and gas to America at a discount because there is no infrastructure to do otherwise.

Differentials Explained: Why Alberta crude sells at a deep discount | Oil Sands Magazine

There are hundreds of crude streams produced around the world, each selling at a different price. Although prices largely rise and fall together, discounts vary due to quality differences, marketability, and delivery costs to the final customer.

www.oilsandsmagazine.com

Instead, Alberta will have to go through a series of American middlemen just to get oil and gas to Ontario.

I am all for the Canadian oil extraction industry and the economy it supports. I am against the lack of pipeline infrastructure in Canada that means Canadians have to jump every time the big orange man gurgles. There is a Trans-Canada Highway. There is a Trans-Canada railway. There is a Trans Canada pipeline company that would be more than happy to build a Trans-Canada pipeline. But every time people point out the obvious way to diversify Canadian trade, suddenly everyone braids their hair and exclaims Mother Nature will die unless Canadian oil flows through American pipelines.

 

[Andy Capp]

This seems kind of silly on its face, why wouldn't Canada export their oil production? Their production far outpaces your small populations' needs. It's almost all excess. Not exporting it would be a waste of effort in extracting it in the first place. If you're not exporting to the US, the most convenient location with direct infrastructure for the trade already in place, then who? You going to start putting it on boats? Canada going to build a navy to protect the trade?

Canada's oil exports are all the leverage you guys have with the states. You don't need all of it, and we need all of it and then some. The main reason Trump backed down is it became obvious how dependent the US is on Canadian oil and the tariffs would suck for us pretty bad.

When you say Canada doesn't have to export 90% of its oil to the states, you're basically saying Canada doesn't need an oil extraction industry and the economy it supports. Which I don't think is true at all. Both countries benefit tremendously from the trade.

Well, that and US farmers get 80% of their potash from Canada, among other things.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Yes, right after Trump threatened tariffs the month before.

Makes sense. “ Keep doing what you are doing, or else!” doesn’t have the same ring to it. Just kind of funny that it’s basically what Canada and Mexico were told by Trump.

 

[idrankyourbeer]

This seems kind of silly on its face, why wouldn't Canada export their oil production? Their production far outpaces your small populations' needs. It's almost all excess. Not exporting it would be a waste of effort in extracting it in the first place. If you're not exporting to the US, the most convenient location with direct infrastructure for the trade already in place, then who? You going to start putting it on boats?

start putting it on boats? we already do via the trans mountain pipeline to get oil to the pacific ocean. and the atlantic side is brought through tankers or produced offshore and put onto ships and barges.

 

[Fergelmince]

Makes sense. “ Keep doing what you are doing, or else!” doesn’t have the same ring to it. Just kind of funny that it’s basically what Canada and Mexico were told by Trump.

Yeah, kind of funny. Why not just say, "Mr President, we've already agreed in December to do what you ordered us to do." Maybe they did and I just missed it. Or, maybe Canada and Mexico weren't doing what they promised to do last year and they needed a push.

 

[kflo]

In his defense, he is pretty left wing on foreign policy and economically. Anti-NATO/Corporations, Pro-Palestine and Pro-Russia. On Social Issues, he is right wing. Kinda like Anna Khachiyan


Thats good to hear but you seem to think that Israel is totally committed to peace when they have been illegally expanding settlements in buffer zones since Eshkol's time.

i've stated many times that i don't think expanding settlements is in anyone's interest and an obstacle to long term peace.

 

[curryjunkie]

Northern border hasn't been relevant for over 20 years. Since decriminalization and legalization of Marijuana, we don't need their bullshit BC bud anymore

wasnt the market for BC bud created because of lumber tarrifs by bush?, wonder what the canadian response would have been if these ones had stuck..

 

[Rational Poster]

The Germans literally came to Canada cap in hand asking to increase trade in natural gas.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scholz-vassy-kapelos-lng-russia-gas-1.6559814

Instead, Canada is subsidizing a German electric battery plant in Ontario.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/vw-volkswagen-st-thomas-battery-plant-german-autos-car-industry-electric-vehicles-1.6817262

Instead, Alberta will continue to sell oil and gas to America at a discount because there is no infrastructure to do otherwise.

Differentials Explained: Why Alberta crude sells at a deep discount | Oil Sands Magazine

There are hundreds of crude streams produced around the world, each selling at a different price. Although prices largely rise and fall together, discounts vary due to quality differences, marketability, and delivery costs to the final customer.

www.oilsandsmagazine.com

Instead, Alberta will have to go through a series of American middlemen just to get oil and gas to Ontario.

I am all for the Canadian oil extraction industry and the economy it supports. I am against the lack of pipeline infrastructure in Canada that means Canadians have to jump every time the big orange man gurgles. There is a Trans-Canada Highway. There is a Trans-Canada railway. There is a Trans Canada pipeline company that would be more than happy to build a Trans-Canada pipeline. But every time people point out the obvious way to diversify Canadian trade, suddenly everyone braids their hair and exclaims Mother Nature will die unless Canadian oil flows through American pipelines.

What does German's LNG demand have to do with Canadian crude production? They're not the same thing.

Do you think German and EU demand can replace the US? Does the logistics capacity even exist on either side of the Atlantic?

America already has the refineries to refine Canadian heavy crude, it's not just about the pipelines. What is the reason to pipe heavy crude to Ontario if there's no way to refine it? Why spend all that money on infrastructure when the existing infrastructure suits both countries needs already?

 

[gatchaman]

What does German's LNG demand have to do with Canadian crude production? They're not the same thing.

Do you think German and EU demand can replace the US? Does the logistics capacity even exist on either side of the Atlantic?

America already has the refineries to refine Canadian heavy crude, it's not just about the pipelines. What is the reason to pipe heavy crude to Ontario if there's no way to refine it? Why spend all that money on infrastructure when the existing infrastructure suits both countries needs already?

If Canada had its own infrastructure then Canadians wouldn't have to sleep like a mouse next to an elephant.

 

[curryjunkie]

i wonder if people here realize there a number of Canadian and US cities, such as Beebe Plain, Vermont, and Stanstead, Quebec, have the border run right thru town and even sometimes right thru homes like the picture below? cite

These town have no official border and typically only have a self reporting border office on both sides, where people crossing the border are supposed to check in.

What that means, is you can do everything you want at the official border crossing elsewhere that are policed and manned but anyone intent to taking a car, van or truck load of anything into the US or Canada, can simply go to these towns, cross the city to the other side and they are in. Short of an official just happening to see them and watching to see if they go self report they will never be caught.

its like ireland, but bigger, all our border posts were done away with when the good friday agreement was signed, before that smuggling was rife, no fentanyl though, more along the lines of food which was cheaper in N ireland , and petrol which was cheaper in the republic.

 

[BFoe]

i wonder if people here realize there a number of Canadian and US cities, such as Beebe Plain, Vermont, and Stanstead, Quebec, have the border run right thru town and even sometimes right thru homes like the picture below? cite

These town have no official border and typically only have a self reporting border office on both sides, where people crossing the border are supposed to check in.

What that means, is you can do everything you want at the official border crossing elsewhere that are policed and manned but anyone intent to taking a car, van or truck load of anything into the US or Canada, can simply go to these towns, cross the city to the other side and they are in. Short of an official just happening to see them and watching to see if they go self report they will never be caught.

Damn.
That’s wonderful! It will make it way easier for me to flee the U.S. than I thought.

 

[Fergelmince]

its like ireland, but bigger, all our border posts were done away with when the good friday agreement was signed, before that smuggling was rife, no fentanyl though, more along the lines of food which was cheaper in N ireland , and petrol which was cheaper in the republic.

 

[ChosenOne]

If Canada had its own infrastructure then Canadians wouldn't have to sleep like a mouse next to an elephant.

even if Canada builds all its own infrastructure,, despite the US already having build much of it on much bigger scales, Canada would still be impacted by the elephant as the US will always be the main purchaser of Canadian output.

so whether they sell the US the raw crude and let them refine it or Canada builds the refineries and sells the US the finished gasoline, the same issue will be present.

 

[syct23]

If Canada had its own infrastructure then Canadians wouldn't have to sleep like a mouse next to an elephant.

You do realize elephants are afraid of mice..